Yet another Israeli invention

[Gamblor]

Yet another Israeli invention (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1540&e=2&u=/afp/israel_science_spider)

An Israeli university has succeeded in genetically-engineering a form of spider's web almost identical to natural webs which could be developed for commercial use.

Created out of genes from the bodies of the spiders themselves, the webs are much stronger than silk and could be used in the manufacture of bullet-proof vests, surgical threat and fishing rods, the Jerusalem Post reported Wednesday.

The development, which was achieved by scientists at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem along with experts from Munich University in Germany and Britain's Oxford University, could open the way for production of the cobwebs for industrial use.

Meanwhile, our neighbours have to be content with having invented the donkey bomb. (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_748025.html)

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

Meanwhile, our neighbours have to be content with having invented the donkey bomb.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you live in Israel Gamblor?

[Gamblor]

Grew up there at times.

[slickpoppa]

Gamblor, why do you feel the need to constantly broadcast your rampant zionism? If you really derive that much pride from the fact that your ancestors happened to come from a region that is now the apartheid state known as Israel, then that's sad. Israel would be nothing today if it were not for the billions of dolars of aid money that the US has given to Israel.

[Zeno]

From the Donkey Bomb Article:

[ QUOTE ]
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) has sent a letter to the Palestinian leader to protest at last month's blast near Jerusalem.

No humans were killed when the donkey was strapped with explosives and detonated, but the attack narrowly missed an Israeli bus carrying soldiers.

"We have received many calls and letters from people shocked at the bombing," Peta president Ingrid Newkirk wrote.

"If you have the opportunity, will you please add to your burdens my request that you appeal to all those who listen to you to leave the animals out of this conflict?"

Ms Newkirk says she has not asked Mr Arafat to try to stop suicide bombings that kill people.

"It's not my business to inject myself into human wars," she told the Washington Post.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well that says it all, methinks.


I'm always pleased to hear about scientific progress. I read, years ago, about the marvelous attributes of spider webs and the inability of humans to duplicate them or the natural process of the spiders. Now it has been done. Kudos.

As to Gamblor being a 'Zionist' - is that a problem for some people? If so, I wish to declared myself an avid Zionist from this time forward into eternity. However long that may be. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Zeno: Zionist Stooge

[Gamblor]

Gamblor, why do you feel the need to constantly broadcast your rampant zionism? If you really derive that much pride from the fact that your ancestors happened to come from a region that is now the apartheid state known as Israel, then that's sad.

That's exactly why I constantly broadcast Israeli successes. To infuriate people like you who have the gall to call it an apartheid state.

Israel would be nothing today if it were not for the billions of dolars of aid money that the US has given to Israel.

It would have been a crater long ago.

[wacki]

Atleast he is educating us on the good aspects of Isreal. Gamblor shows us the good stuff, and Nicky G and a few others point out the bad stuff about Isreal as well as keeping Gamblor in check. So it ends up being pretty fair and balanced.

I honestly think it's a good thing. There is so much turmoil in that part of the world I'm not going to criticize someone for pointing out the most important news of the region. After 9/11 and the war on terror, how can you?

[jimdmcevoy]

Cool, I am curious what most people in Israel think of Americans, did you get a general impression of this when you where there?

I know an Israeli foreign exchange student (I'm in Australia) and he sorta reckoned that the culture there teaches you to 'bow down' to Americans, I think his direct quote was something like "sucking American dick" (he personally was not a big fan of America)

[Gamblor]

I've posted about that in the past lots of times.

The general attitude there is that the streets of America, for Jews at least, are paved with gold. More money than god.

When an Israeli comes to America (officially), he's a circus clown passed around from Jewish organization to Jewish organization, speaking at $200 a plate dinners and whoring himself out to squeeze one more penny out of a potential donor.

Our politicians are even worse.

Americans are way too uptight though. Social graces and things like that don't exist in Israel. Everyone in Israel is way more hospitable than people in America, and much more friendly. But Israelis don't follow rules. They don't wait in line, and they're extremely direct. They see a nice car, "Kama zeh oleh? (How much was it?)". You meet someone new, talking about your jobs. "How much do you make?"

Very direct. But everyone stops in one second to help you if you have a flat tire.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

Americans are way too uptight though.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Israel sounds like a country I'll have to visit before I die, thanks for the insight.

[chabibi]

you must go
israelis love americans especially the chicks when i go i get pussy just because im "american" i live in canada but pretend to be american for the pussy and im sure gamblor will agree israeli bitches for the most part are smoking hot

[andyfox]

"The development, which was achieved by scientists at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem along with experts from Munich University in Germany . . ."

Maybe there's hope for the Israelis and Palestinians yet . . .

[andyfox]

I think of all the things PETA does, it's this attitude that troubles me the most. With all the problems people have I find it hard to worry about donkeys.

[Gamblor]

They're hot. Maybe not as hot as Americans but there aren't many fat girls.

He's right though. They love Americans. Anyone who speaks english without an Israeli accent is money. Supposed to be exotic.

"Um yes, I am American. I don't know my way around.

"Stam* teach me how Hebrews talk, kusina**? Oops."

*Stam = just. like "What's wrong? Stam ayef - Just tired"

*Kusina = no real translation, it's arabic, but it's similar to calling a girl a pussy (not like scared, like all she is is just a pussy with legs)

[arabie]

[ QUOTE ]
the apartheid state known as Israel

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you aren't trying to relate this in any way to south afrika. I know apartheid just means segregation and that term can be used in many ways, but the word definitely has tacit meaning. Anyways, i grew up in south afrika, under the apartheid regime, and i have been to israel several times.. i can assure, they are incomparable situations and have no fundamnetal similarities. If you want specfics, let me know and i'll tell you, but if you do a little quality research, you should find answers pretty quickly.

Also, what is wrong with gamblor focusing on an issue that he is familiar to and attachted with. You'll notice alan schoonmaker only posts pyschology questions to the specific field he works in, and won't even answer a response about something he doesn't have a direct affiliation with. This is gamblor's specific topic of interest and experience so he is responsible for the israel posts. Everyone on the forum, whether or not we agree with their opinions, is entitled to focus on their interests. There is no moral in diversifying your posts. I don't understand why you care so much, espeacially when all you have to do is not participate in the post.

[ACPlayer]

what is wrong with gamblor focusing on an issue that he is familiar to and attachted with.

Nothing at all, but I think the Israeli achievement (which I know nothing about so I cant say how important) is diminished by the attack about the donkey bomb. A straightforward post showing that Israel has done another fine thing to advance science, humanities etc would have been better.

Incidentally, while in Israel did you visit any towns in the West Bank or Gaza to see the living conditions of those that are segregated. I would be interested in that.

[Gamblor]

Incidentally, while in Israel did you visit any towns in the West Bank or Gaza to see the living conditions of those that are segregated. I would be interested in that.

You have the most ridiculous paradigm of the way it works there.

They're not citizens, they're not even "subjects" of the state of Israel.

Segregation is a misnomer. They're in poverty because Arafat misappropriated all their foreign aid money.

They're independent. Meaning, the State owes them nothing. And as long as they embrace terrorism, Israel will prevent them from organizing that terrorism into a state of their own.

[ACPlayer]

First, I want to know the living conditions there. A fair question when your brothers have discos, larger housing, and freedom of movement.

Segregation is a misnomer. They're in poverty because Arafat misappropriated all their foreign aid money.

They are surrounded by IDF, fences, and guns. They cannot move freely even in all of Palestine. That is not segregated?

They're independent. Meaning, the State owes them nothing. And as long as they embrace terrorism, Israel will prevent them from organizing that terrorism into a state of their own.

It is not as long as they embrace terrorism that Israel will keep firing the Apache guns, it is until they are cleansed out of the region at least till the Jordan river. As has been repeatedly and persuasively shown in various threads, Israel has no interest in peace until the occupy all of that land.

[Gamblor]

First, I want to know the living conditions there. A fair question when your brothers have discos, larger housing, and freedom of movement.

While I pity them, it is not the responsibility of Israel to support the non-citizens.

Why does America not pay for Mexico's povery-stricken neighbourhoods to be upgraded?

They are surrounded by IDF, fences, and guns. They cannot move freely even in all of Palestine. That is not segregated?

They are only surrounded now since they began the most recent terrorist campaign. Throughout the 80s, the IDF stayed away from Arab towns.

As has been repeatedly and persuasively shown in various threads, Israel has no interest in peace until the occupy all of that land.

Haven't seen that anywhere near persuasively. And Israel has no interest in peace until it is secure. Until people can walk on the street without worrying about getting blown to bits. Whether that is done by negotiation or violence is up to the Arabs.

[jimdmcevoy]

Cool, even more reason to go. Lucky for me then I have mostly an American accent (I'm a dual citizen), and chabibi has got it down perfectly, tell them you're American if they like American's, if not say your Canadian. This works all over the world if you are American or Canadian.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]


ACPLayer: First, I want to know the living conditions there. A fair question when your brothers have discos, larger housing, and freedom of movement.

Gamblor: While I pity them, it is not the responsibility of Israel to support the non-citizens.

Gamblor: Why does America not pay for Mexico's povery-stricken neighbourhoods to be upgraded?


[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about a non-response -- your usual side slip the point and get in some anti palestinian/pro israeli rhetoric. I certainly have not brought up Israel's responsibility -- yet.

Why dont you want me hear from others the state of the people in Palestine. Must be much worse than the media make it out to be. That is the only conclusion I can draw, from the simple request for information.

[nicky g]

"While I pity them, it is not the responsibility of Israel to support the non-citizens."

If it does not with to take responsibility for such people by according them citizenship, it has no business having any kind of military presence or rule over them or their land, nor any right to build walls or settlements on their land, or appropriate their resources for itself and its illegal settlements.


"Why does America not pay for Mexico's povery-stricken neighbourhoods to be upgraded?"

America does not build settlements or walls on Mexican land, it doesn't control Mexican airspace or Mexican borders with other countries, it doesn't steal Mexican water resources or coastal gas resources, it doesn't collect Mexican taxes or withhold them from the Mexican government, it doesn;t rule over large swathes of Mexican land and it doesn;t reagard it it as its right to stage routine "incursions" into Mexico. In short it doesn't militarily occupy Mexico for decades at a stretch.

[Gamblor]

Why dont you want me hear from others the state of the people in Palestine. Must be much worse than the media make it out to be. That is the only conclusion I can draw, from the simple request for information.

The situation in Gaza and PA-controlled areas of the West Bank (still lookin for Palestine on my map here... nope, not there):

Each family has 10 kids that they pile into 3-4 room houses. The father goes and works all day just to feed the family, but then demands his wife pop out another kid. There's no PA-control outside of political activity. They control the education and utilities, but there is virtual lawlessness (even more so in the last year). The PA police don't do very much, but the gangs basically run the streets. Gangs being Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Izz-a-din al Kassam Brigades, Popular Palestine Liberation Front, etc. etc. They patrol streets, decide where they want to operate, and then kick out the families. They plant bombs in front of people's houses because they know Israeli soldiers patrol by at night - often the bomb explodes when the house owner arrives home and he dies instead.

Israeli soldiers, especially in Gaza, for the most part avoid Arab cities until intelligence provides information about terrorists or future terrorist attacks. The army then goes in and does periodic patrols of the streets, following the predetermined route into the city and through it once. The army always walks exactly in line so someone viewing from the front can't tell if it's one soldier or a hundred. Another patrol is always 10 minutes behind if there's trouble.

[Gamblor]

America does not build settlements or walls on Mexican land, it doesn't control Mexican airspace or Mexican borders with other countries, it doesn't steal Mexican water resources or coastal gas resources, it doesn't collect Mexican taxes or withhold them from the Mexican government, it doesn;t rule over large swathes of Mexican land and it doesn;t reagard it it as its right to stage routine "incursions" into Mexico. In short it doesn't militarily occupy Mexico for decades at a stretch.

Who decided whose land it was? Why do you assume the land belongs to the PLO?

You have this assumption that if people are there it's "theirs". As if there was a PLO-nation already operating. Israel legally conquered the land from Jordan, who renounced all claim to it.

[jimdmcevoy]

Gamblor has a point, America took a huge chunk of land from Mexico, most of California, New Mexico, and Arizona and maybe some parts other places, I'm not exactly sure.

But you may argue that America nowadays affords all U.S. citizens in these parts the same rights as people anywhere else that the U.S. occupies.

Except maybe Puerto Ricans, to bad for them eh?

[Gamblor]

But you may argue that America nowadays affords all U.S. citizens in these parts the same rights as people anywhere else that the U.S. occupies.

Aha.

affords all U.S. citizens

PLO Arabs are not citizens of Israel because they chose to allow the PLO to represent their interests, and the PLO has not come to an agreement with Israel.

So Israel has no obligation to those people. But Israeli Arabs should get and for the most part are afforded full and equal rights.

[jimdmcevoy]

I'm still not convinced that Israel no responsibility.

I understand your argument, but in my mind some of these people don't care what the PLO says and does, they just wanna have a good life etc.

If it was up to me I'd ask the people living in the occupied territory what they want, and not let the PLO speak for them, because I doubt the PLO would put the priorities of the poeple most affected at the top of the list.

In my opinion this is a very moral grey area, very subjective.

[Gamblor]

If it was up to me I'd ask the people living in the occupied territory what they want, and not let the PLO speak for them, because I doubt the PLO would put the priorities of the poeple most affected at the top of the list.

Now we're talking.

Don't forget to include the Arab states in this mess - they've been bouncing refugees around for decades. Arafat and his cronies have been booted out of Tunisia, Lebanon, Jordan, and the West Bank at various times.

[jimdmcevoy]

Refugees, hmm....

Tricky tricky subject. It's hard to say what's ethical/right/legal.

Example: In the years before America got involved in World War II America rejected boatloads of Jewish immigrants from Nazi-occupied Europe, sent them back where they came from.

Can this be proven to be 'irresponsible' or wrong or illegal or whatever? who knows.

All very grey. What we need is a benevolent dictator to rule the world. No not me. Alright fine I'll do it! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Lazymeatball]

So are they coming out with a Jewish Spiderman anytime soon? They could change his name to Harvey Speidermen.

[Gamblor]

They could change his name to Harvey Speidermen.

Excellent.

[arabie]

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, while in Israel did you visit any towns in the West Bank or Gaza to see the living conditions of those that are segregated. I would be interested in that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually i went in '96 and my cousins and I went to the markets in Jannin to do some shopping and walk around. I also went sight seeing in east Jerusalem on a my week stay in the city. Basically, the living condition are not that bad at all, at least that was the case in '96. If you want to see the harsh consequences of segragation then go to Alexandra, South Afrika, and then you will see why i say the two issues "don't compare!"

[whiskeytown]

the donkey bomb....hilarious....

almost as funny as the mine dog - in WW2, the Russians (and only they could have come up with this) had an idea to strap high explosive to dogs and use it to blow up tanks.

1. - Feed the dog constantly under running tanks
2. - when they're used to running under tanks, strap a satchel charge to them with a trigger on the back and let them loose near the germans.

problem - they were conditioned with Russian tanks, and they were smart/sensitive enough to go running to what sounded like Russian tanks instead of German ones....

donkey bomb.....no matter what you think of Israel/palestine relations, that's hilarious....almost pathetic - like something out of a Mel Brooks Movie.

RB

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
almost pathetic - like something out of a Mel Brooks Movie.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Or an episode of Southpark.

Richard: [Singing] Loving you, is easy cause you're beautiful - doo-n-doo--doo-doooo--Ahhhh

[andyfox]

. . . there are still too many people with attitudes of "yet another" great thing from the Jews, and yet another donkey bomb from the anti-Jews. Which, of course, sadly, leads to more anti-Jews.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

. . . there are still too many people with attitudes of "yet another" great thing from the Jews, and yet another donkey bomb from the anti-Jews. Which, of course, sadly, leads to more anti-Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

That "yet another" is more an observation than an attitude, and a pretty accurate observation at that.

By definition, there can't be "too many" people making an observation which generally corresponds with reality. If anything, there can only be "too few".

All this doesn't mean that the Palestinians are destined to forever invent things no better than donkey bombs. Historical observations may suggest but not predict the future, and the future is not set in stone.

If candid observation and speech creates more anti-Jews, then that's just the way the world turns, I suppose.

On the other hand, some human beings have been known to take a step back and look at themselves when others have candidly pointed out their shortcomings. I should hope you would give credit to the "anti-Jews" for being capable of doing this as well.

Yesterday was a day of Happy Wandering, but today was not. Therefore I had to find a fallacy or platitude to pick on in this forum, and chanced upon this gem, which fit the bill eminently.

Just don't call me "sir", please;-)

[arabie]

"
America does not build settlements or walls on Mexican land, it doesn't control Mexican airspace or Mexican borders with other countries, it doesn't steal Mexican water resources or coastal gas resources, it doesn't collect Mexican taxes or withhold them from the Mexican government, it doesn;t rule over large swathes of Mexican land and it doesn;t reagard it it as its right to stage routine "incursions" into Mexico. In short it doesn't militarily occupy Mexico for decades at a stretch."


How many suicide bombs has Mexico sent into America? Your example is a poor relation to your point.

[ACPlayer]

Gamblor's argument as usual is self serving.

These are the occupied territories and as such Israel is completely responsible for the people in that territory. In effect Gamblor is saying that the people in West Bank and Gaza are not living in Israel but is unwilling to recognize that they are living in a state called palestine (or anything else for that matter).

Ask him what Israel's view of the boundary of Israel is and whether any Israeli settlements outside this boundary should be considered illegal. If the boundary excludes the land where the palestinian live then the settlers are illegal (a major stumbling block to a solution) and if the boundary includes all land to the Jordan river then the palestinians are living in Israel and it is that govt's responsibility to treat them properly.

[ACPlayer]

another gamblor self serving post.

"father goes to work" -- most of the people there are unemployed and the situation is made worse by israeli policies. the farmer's land is being cut in half by the fences, the trader cant travel, etc.

"then demands the wife pop out a kid" cant make a statement without your rampant hatred coming out can it. you as the sample of the IDF we have here - it is no wonder that kids are being killed by them willy nilly.

thanks gamblor i can count on you to provide an objective statement - NOT!!!!!

[ACPlayer]

I lived in south africa (jo'burg) for 3 years in the late 90s and have seen the shanty towns around the country.

Thanks for the inputs.

[Cyrus]

Or is that a supreme race?

Anyway. Those stupid Palestinians are clearly a biologically and intellectually inferior race.

I'll let Wogga elaborate.

[Gamblor]

another gamblor self serving post.

"father goes to work" -- most of the people there are unemployed and the situation is made worse by israeli policies. the farmer's land is being cut in half by the fences, the trader cant travel, etc.

"then demands the wife pop out a kid" cant make a statement without your rampant hatred coming out can it. you as the sample of the IDF we have here - it is no wonder that kids are being killed by them willy nilly.

thanks gamblor i can count on you to provide an objective statement - NOT!!!!!

I'm sorry, Ahmed. Why don't you tell me all about the things you've seen firsthand there. No no, not what you read in a newspaper. I mean with your own two eyes.

You have no idea. But you think you do, and that's the worst part. But go ahead, keep repeating what you hear in the newspaper. It makes you sound smart.

[Gamblor]

These are the occupied territories and as such Israel is completely responsible for the people in that territory. In effect Gamblor is saying that the people in West Bank and Gaza are not living in Israel but is unwilling to recognize that they are living in a state called palestine (or anything else for that matter).


By the very definition of the word, they are not occupied territories as Jordan renounced all claim to them when Israel conquered them in 1967. Suddenly, around 1969, the "Palestinians" invented themselves and began to fight for land.

Ask him what Israel's view of the boundary of Israel is and whether any Israeli settlements outside this boundary should be considered illegal. If the boundary excludes the land where the palestinian live then the settlers are illegal (a major stumbling block to a solution) and if the boundary includes all land to the Jordan river then the palestinians are living in Israel and it is that govt's responsibility to treat them properly.

Right now, the legal boundaries are the Mediterranean sea, the Jordan River, Metulla, and Eilat. But the final boundaries will be subject to negotiations, independent of what I think.

[Gamblor]

You both have the same sense of humour.

Where do you come up with this shit?

[Utah]

First of all, Christopher Walken was awesome in "King of New York".

Second, it is true that many Jews feel they are biologically superior to Palestinians. I randomly asked several of my Jewish friends and they said yes. However, they were all American Jews (although one lived in Israel for awhile) so that might have something to do with it.

[andyfox]

One person's observation is another person's attitude. Some people saw, for example the "winning of the west." Later, others saw genocide. There was truth and fallacy in the original version. And there is truth and fallacy in the revisionist view.

With all due respect to Gamblor, he is hardly an objective observor of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

[arabie]

Neither Palestinians or Israeli's are races, nor is one scientically biologically superior to the other (as far as humans can tell). I think gamblor's point was reffering to more of a cultural manifestation. He is trying to say that if societies are thieved by their governments, propagated their entire lives, and are born into the lowest grade of morals, then, this results in a culture of donkey bombers etc. On the other hand, a democractic society with common "western values", that most of us appreaciate, can be fairly prosperous.

[Gamblor]

It has nothing to do with biology.

It has to do with the choices they make, whether at the negotiating table or what means they choose to get what they want.

They have no money, and they choose to have 15 kids. They choose violence as the only method to get what they want.

Everyone watches the news. But you just don't know what it's really like. The world is so different. All the rules we assume determine "right" and "wrong" simply don't exist in PA-controlled territories.

[Cyrus]

Confusing an actor with his characters is a true sign of movie-nuttiness.

Or just plain nuttiness.

Sincere congratulations. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Gamblor]

Definition for Cyrus (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/typecast)

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Christopher Walken was awesome in "King of New York".


[/ QUOTE ]

Have you seen the music video where he dances on the walls?

[nicky g]

It is simply amazing the way you flit from one position to another whithout admitting the contradiction.

"Israel legally conquered the land from Jordan, who renounced all claim to it. "

"Legally"? Says who. All major bodies of international law have repeatedy ruled the occupation illegal.

"Who decided whose land it was? Why do you assume the land belongs to the PLO?"

It belongs to the people who live there, and self-determination is their right. End of story. Nevertheless, if you really believe that in national termsit belongs to Israel, then Israel must incorporate it and give its residents legal rights and citizenship. It either gives up the land, or it incorporates it and its people into Israel. You cannot have the territory without the people, and you cannot impose a permanent apartheid/theft occupation regime.

[nicky g]

"How many suicide bombs has Mexico sent into America? Your example is a poor relation to your point. "

The example was Gamblor's, not mine, and you have entirely missed the point. He stated that Israel has no more responsibility ot he well-being of the residents of the Occupied Territories than the US does to Mexicans. Clearly when Israel is the ultimate power in the territories and onfers upon itself the right to take whatever it wants form them, build whatever it wants on them, and impose itself on the daily lives of the residents, it has clear responsibilities to them, regardless of whether you believe the occupation to be justified or not.

[Gamblor]

"Legally"? Says who. All major bodies of international law have repeatedy ruled the occupation illegal.

No, they haven't. The conflict must be solved through negotiation, not outright transfer of the territories, which as of now have no defined borders, to PA control.

But Arafat's insistence on negotiating with a gun to Israel's head what started the intransigence in the first place.

It belongs to the people who live there, and self-determination is their right.

I hope you understand the can of worms you open by making a ridiculous claim like this.

All the bums who live under the bridge could suddenly claim the bridge as their own.

[ACPlayer]

The conflict must be solved through negotiation

Within momenets of writing this in this thread, in another thread you derided the option of negotiation.

You want to claim all the land to the Jordan but have no interest in how the people living there fare, and you want to negotiate with someone but all who live in that area are terrorists or hide them or are distant relatives of them.

The only solution is thus to keep the fighting going, killing them off by the dozen as you and your fellow goons have been doing for the past few years until they are all dead. They look around and say, OK ready to negotiate!

No wonder you have zero credibility and no wonder Israel has zero credibility.

[nicky g]

"It belongs to the people who live there, and self-determination is their right.

I hope you understand the can of worms you open by making a ridiculous claim like this.

All the bums who live under the bridge could suddenly claim the bridge as their own. "

Fine, if you think there's no reason to see the territories as distinct from Israel, incorporate them into Israel and accord their residents Israeli citizenship. I really don't care if you incorrenctly think the territories belong to Israel, that the occupation is legal or that their people don't constitute a distinct national group with rights of self-determination; because the simple fact is you that the only possible long term solutions that do not invlove an indenfinite continuation of an apartheid occupation or the mass ethnic cleansing of the longstanding inhabitants of Palestine are the establsihment of a Palestinian state or the absorption of the territories and their citizens into Israel. You refuse to countenance either, so presumably advocate but refuse to admit either the permanent indefinite perpetuation of a regime under which Israeli settlers are bound by no law and Palestinians protected by none, or the ethnic cleansing of millions of people.

[Gamblor]

The only solution is thus to keep the fighting going, killing them off by the dozen as you and your fellow goons have been doing for the past few years until they are all dead. They look around and say, OK ready to negotiate!

Great rhetoric, nice invective, a little bit of low-brow insult in there was key, and a top it off with some sarcasm.

No wonder you have zero credibility and no wonder Israel has zero credibility.

I see.

[ACPlayer]

I knew I should have used a stronger word than GOON.

[Gamblor]

Fine, if you think there's no reason to see the territories as distinct from Israel, incorporate them into Israel and accord their residents Israeli citizenship.

I am prepared to accept all those people into Israel when this, (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/world/main656883.shtml) this, (http://www.pmw.org.il/http:/www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part11.html) this, (http://www.honestreporting.com/images/alhayatcartoonusrapist.jpg) this, (http://www.pmw.org.il/LiblesF.htm) and this (http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html) ends.

[nicky g]

The first link is an article on Sharon making a post-Arafat death concession - what do you want to end, SHaron;s premiership? Exceelent, me too. The second is broken.No you aren't.

There are no circumstances under which you would allow Palestinians to be be incorporated because as you've repeatdly said it would undermine the Jewish character of the state. Which is why you and your pals carry on with the occupation as a second best soltuion in the hope you can one day find some pretext to get rid of the Palestinians forever. It makes no difference anyway. Where does it say that if there are terrorists amongst a population, they have no right to statehood, no right to citizenship of a country, no right to self-determination? Should Nothern Irish catholics have been stripped of their citizenship and all legal rights because of the IRA? Should Egypt be occupied because there are fundamentalists there too?