checkraised on the turn - do i have to improve to call the river ?

[Thomsen]

I have thought about this for a while now. Often when someone checkraises the turn they have at least two pair or better - this is especially true if they checkraise the pre flop raiser.

Should i have called this one on the river anyways ?

Would i know this better if i raised it preflop ? And if yes - then why ?


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

ALWAYS open raise this hand PF. I would call the river.

[Fantam]

Hi. I am no expert but this is what I think :
First AQs is a very strong hand and worth raising pre-flop.
High suited connectors play well in multiway pots and you would like to build the pot up.
After the flop I cant see that you made any mistakes, and possibly the BB drew out on you either with a 2 pair or straight.
However, by that stage the pot was big and so I would have called for one more bet incase the BB was bluffing.
It would be a shame to lose a big pot for the sake of one bet, and you would not have to win very often for this play to be correct.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
ALWAYS open raise this hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is not even close to accurate.


outs

[47outs]

A lot of missing information here. Is this c/r'er in your PT database?

Without information this may be a good river call for two reasons.

1) You MIGHT be ahead. (I doubt it but if the pot is there..)
2) After you call you know what he has. Valuable info for the next time your in this situation with him.


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[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]

High suited connectors play well in multiway pots

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm no expert either but I don't think AQs is a suited connector. A one gapper maybe?

Otherwise I agree with your post!


outs

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ALWAYS open raise this hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is not even close to accurate.


outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Name one situation in which u open limp w/ AQs in 3/6 full.

your handle pwns btw

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]

Name one situation in which u open limp w/ AQs in 3/6 full.


[/ QUOTE ]


I can name more than 1. utg, utg+1, co... ok everywhere except blind steal.
Short game, raise always.


[ QUOTE ]


your handle pwns btw



[/ QUOTE ]


What is pwns?


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[surfdoc]

You gotta raise this preflop. What are you doing utg/utg+1?

[47outs]

My reasoning for not raising AQs preflop is this...

a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ (not always, as in anything poker)
b) a limp gets action from Ax (your money ace) and 2suited spades less than yours.


notes: I do raise AQs late, this is an obvious play. Some times when I raise pre I feel ownership of the pot and I find it hard to release. For now to overcome the problem, I limp certain hands. However, i think limping hands like this has as many positives as negatives.


Also, if you are raising this hand preflop and I'm at your table... if I call, your dominated - always. I dont cold call AQs and lower, unless pokertracker tells me to /images/graemlins/wink.gif


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[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ (not always, as in anything poker)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true in a loose game.

[ QUOTE ]
b) a limp gets action from Ax (your money ace) and 2suited spades less than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will get action anyway in a loose low limit game.

I'd tend to agree that you should always raise AQs in a low limit full-table hold'em game.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising AQs preflop is this...

a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ (not always, as in anything poker)
b) a limp gets action from Ax (your money ace) and 2suited spades less than yours.


notes: I do raise AQs late, this is an obvious play. Some times when I raise pre I feel ownership of the pot and I find it hard to release. For now to overcome the problem, I limp certain hands. However, i think limping hands like this has as many positives as negatives.


Also, if you are raising this hand preflop and I'm at your table... if I call, your dominated - always. I dont cold call AQs and lower, unless pokertracker tells me to /images/graemlins/wink.gif


outs

[/ QUOTE ]


THIS is not remotely accurate.

[47outs]

Oh yah, what part isn't accurate.



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[Thomsen]

good points

[Seether]

I have to say that you are leaving bets on the table in your average 3/6 game by not open raising AQs from any position.

[ QUOTE ]
notes: I do raise AQs late, this is an obvious play. Some times when I raise pre I feel ownership of the pot and I find it hard to release. For now to overcome the problem, I limp certain hands. However, i think limping hands like this has as many positives as negatives.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a flaw in your game, not necesarily in others.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont cold call AQs and lower

[/ QUOTE ]

In a 3/6 game I think this is too weak tight for a general rule.

[ QUOTE ]
a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ (not always, as in anything poker)


[/ QUOTE ]
I really wonder if your playing on the same tables as me. My utg raises with Aces are often called by junk such as KJo, Axs etc. I hope some other active posters in the small stakes forum put their input in this thread because this style of play seems so backwards to the style that is normally advocated on this website.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ (not always, as in anything poker)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is really wrong. I dunno, my PFR with AQs is 91% and I win 1.04 bb/hand with it. Could I be winning more raising it less? Do you really think these idiots are going to fold AJ, AT, A9, or any suited ace just because somebody raised? You shouldn't be playing against a table full of experts who will deny you action with those hands. This is a value raise from any position, and it's a three-bet against most opponents.

With regards to this hand, of course have you to call down. You haven't shown any strength PF so why would this guy think you have an ace, much less an ace with a decent kicker?
-James

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really wrong. I dunno, my PFR with AQs is 91% and I win 1.04 bb/hand with it. Could I be winning more raising it less? Do you really think these idiots are going to fold AJ, AT, A9, or any suited ace just because somebody raised? You shouldn't be playing against a table full of experts who will deny you action with those hands. This is a value raise from any position, and it's a three-bet against most opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]


This seems to be the consensus. I may have to re-evaluate the AQ and try raising, see where it gets me.

I play 12 tables so I tend to steer from situations where I have to play behind from the get go. One poster called me weak tight.. my preflop standards are strict but when I play a hand then all hell breaks loose (well as much as game play will let me).

Like my post said, I put a lot of faith into PT and play accordingly. If there are a lot of callers i will call a raise with AQs but there is no point mixing it up vs. a tight raiser with AQ.

There are a lot of good players on 3/6 (lots of fish too), and just because someone sucks it doesn't mean they can't get some group 1's.

AQoff and suited avg =

seen 903. .27bb/hand 46.89 pfr w$sd 61.84%

If I raised it more preflop would my w$sd go up?
It is clear you are raking a whole lot more on this hand than I so I must change something.

outs

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
ALWAYS open raise this hand PF. I would call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am beginning to wonder why in the hell I ever take the advice people give on here seriously. That's one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[James282]

My AQo is only about .65. And I win at showdown less than you do, but then again I probably play it more. If someone has a PFR 10 and up I will three-bet a raise, and if there is a raise and several callers I'll usually three bet because the callers have such trash. On the other hand, I almost always fold it to a three-bet. I understand playing tightly when supertabling but that doesn't mean you should be any less aggressive. Take my advice with a grain of salt because it's so tough to get a real good statistical idea of how anyone does with 1 specific hand since the sample is so small, but I would be raising the AQ hands in pretty much every unraised pot I came across, especially at 3/6 where the overall play is much lower than at the 15/30.
-James

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
This statement is not even close to accurate.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think it was damn accurate.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all see your obvious talent so please enlighten us when not to open raise it?

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all see your obvious talent so please enlighten us when not to open raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd like to know too. when do you not open raise AQs in party 3/6?

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all see your obvious talent so please enlighten us when not to open raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG at a super tight table. Middle position with a maniac on your right.

There's two examples. I'll leave it as a class project to think up some more and think about why you don't want to open raise in those examples. Perhaps if you're really bright, you can come up with some that even take your table image into account.

[Tosh]

Thank you so very much, I feel like a better player already. I truly look forward to your next post.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you so very much, I feel like a better player already. I truly look forward to your next post.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're as good as you could possibly be already.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you so very much, I feel like a better player already. I truly look forward to your next post.

[/ QUOTE ]


Go for a record Tosh. The most sarcastic posts in a single thread. While your at it, try some constructive critism... post something useful so that maybe we can learn from you as well?

outs

[Fantam]

Thankyou, as you can see I am not overly familiar with the precise terminology.
I must admit that I was surprised to see how much attention this question raised and found it very interesting to read all the different views.
I would agree that it may be worth limping in some of the time pre-flop, if one was playing at a higher stakes level, to try to create some deception and to encourage a multiway pot.
However at low stakes I doubt whether this would probably be necessary.
Best of luck at the tables to everyone. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BusterStacks]

What a rediculous thread. ALWAYS RAISE THIS HAND.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Middle position with a maniac on your right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Btw how does the fact a maniac has folded before you make a difference?

[balkii]

WOW.

I thought there were some dumb threads around here but whether or not to OPENRAISE AQs probably takes the cake. This shouldnt even be a discussion. This thread was done after piz0wne3d reply.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Middle position with a maniac on your right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Btw how does the fact a maniac has folded before you make a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh clearly I meant left, dope.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Middle position with a maniac on your right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Btw how does the fact a maniac has folded before you make a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG owned

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

Meh clearly I meant left, dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, if only I was psychic.

PS Whats your Party name, PM if you don't want everyone to know?

[Thomsen]

i have no more info sry

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh clearly I meant left, dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, if only I was psychic.

PS Whats your Party name, PM if you don't want everyone to know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupidest. Question. Ever.

Why would I give out my Party name to people on a site where I discuss my poker thinking to such a degree? Are you retarded?

Why not just email you my PT stats? Hey, while I'm at it, I could write about a 50 page essay detailing everything I was thinking in my last 1000 hands, and I could send those along as well.

Dope.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Stupidest. Question. Ever.

Why would I give out my Party name to people on a site where I discuss my poker thinking to such a degree? Are you retarded?


[/ QUOTE ]

Er maybe because you've been telling everyone who will listen to 'come find you on Party'. Some might say its hard to come and find you if you don't reveal your name.

So you were just full of it before then?

[bicyclekick]

lol.

Not raising AQs. That's a good one.

I can't help myself...it jsut begs for sarcasm. It's a no-brainer.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stupidest. Question. Ever.

Why would I give out my Party name to people on a site where I discuss my poker thinking to such a degree? Are you retarded?


[/ QUOTE ]

Er maybe because you've been telling everyone who will listen to 'come find you on Party'. Some might say its hard to come and find you if you don't reveal your name.

So you were just full of it before then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely hope that the people who posted on that thread come and play the 5-10 at Party. Even if I don't know who they are and they don't know who I am, them playing at my table is +EV for me. Same with you.

But I'm certainly not going to give them any edge by letting them see into my poker mind on here. That would be as stupid as not realizing when you should and shouldn't be capping with aces or raising with AQs. Which, clearly, you don't.

So yes, come play on Party. I dearly hope I'm in a game with you.

[umdpoker]

what the hell, did you say to open limp with aqs in the cutoff???? this may be the worst advice i have ever seen on 2+2. ok, maybe not as bad as those jackasses who try to come up with scenarios where folding aa preflop is good.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell, did you say to open limp with aqs in the cutoff???? this may be the worst advice i have ever seen on 2+2. ok, maybe not as bad as those jackasses who try to come up with scenarios where folding aa preflop is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't tell you to do it. Play your own flawless poker and me play mine.

If it was advice, what makes you so damn good to say that it was the worst advice. Get over yourself.



outs

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
What a rediculous thread. ALWAYS RAISE THIS HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, always raise it. Because it is the best hand in hold'em right?

Don't be so narrow minded.

outs

[Your Mom]

In 3/6 Party, you should raise this 100% of the time, no questions asked.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What a rediculous thread. ALWAYS RAISE THIS HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, always raise it. Because it is the best hand in hold'em right?

Don't be so narrow minded.

outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, shut up. It's not up for debate, raising here is THE CORRECT PLAY.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stupidest. Question. Ever.

Why would I give out my Party name to people on a site where I discuss my poker thinking to such a degree? Are you retarded?


[/ QUOTE ]

Er maybe because you've been telling everyone who will listen to 'come find you on Party'. Some might say its hard to come and find you if you don't reveal your name.

So you were just full of it before then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely hope that the people who posted on that thread come and play the 5-10 at Party. Even if I don't know who they are and they don't know who I am, them playing at my table is +EV for me. Same with you.

But I'm certainly not going to give them any edge by letting them see into my poker mind on here. That would be as stupid as not realizing when you should and shouldn't be capping with aces or raising with AQs. Which, clearly, you don't.

So yes, come play on Party. I dearly hope I'm in a game with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you like to play me in a 1200$ heads up freeze out at 15/30? I would play your little stakes but the rake is too high for heads up.
-James

[James282]

You live in Niagara Falls? I'm so jealous. I would go look at them every day if I was you. Hope my response helped, I apologize on the behalf of those who berated you for asking a serious question.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all see your obvious talent so please enlighten us when not to open raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG at a super tight table. Middle position with a maniac on your right.

There's two examples. I'll leave it as a class project to think up some more and think about why you don't want to open raise in those examples. Perhaps if you're really bright, you can come up with some that even take your table image into account.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I bother because you have shown not once that you would ever waver on one of your points, but I will just try one more time in case someone for some reason is believing what you said. On a super tight table, I would raise more hands UTG. Why? Because people are more likely to fold hands that beat mine. Hell, I'd raise ATs on a super tight table because I know people would fold TT and AQ and hands like these behinds me.

As for when you have a maniac to your left, WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO RAISE AND LET HIM THREE BET AND ISOLATE THE TWO OF YOU WHEN YOUR HAND ALREADY HAS SHOWDOWN VALUE!?!?!?

Ok sorry, I'm done now. If you missed my post offering to play you in a heads up freezeout at 15 30(or 30 60 or whatever stakes you want to play) then I'd like to direct you to it, it's right above this one.
-James

[Thomsen]

i think that will help me so thanks in ad.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Here you should have open-raised of course, but you very clearly do not always raise with AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all see your obvious talent so please enlighten us when not to open raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG at a super tight table. Middle position with a maniac on your right.

There's two examples. I'll leave it as a class project to think up some more and think about why you don't want to open raise in those examples. Perhaps if you're really bright, you can come up with some that even take your table image into account.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I bother because you have shown not once that you would ever waver on one of your points, but I will just try one more time in case someone for some reason is believing what you said. On a super tight table, I would raise more hands UTG. Why? Because people are more likely to fold hands that beat mine. Hell, I'd raise ATs on a super tight table because I know people would fold TT and AQ and hands like these behinds me.

As for when you have a maniac to your left, WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO RAISE AND LET HIM THREE BET AND ISOLATE THE TWO OF YOU WHEN YOUR HAND ALREADY HAS SHOWDOWN VALUE!?!?!?

Ok sorry, I'm done now. If you missed my post offering to play you in a heads up freezeout at 15 30(or 30 60 or whatever stakes you want to play) then I'd like to direct you to it, it's right above this one.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh, an internet toughie challenging me to a heads up match!

Um, no.

[Tosh]

This has sort of dwindled out funwise, do what you want Lansing but do promise one thing. Bookmark these thread and come back to them if/when you're learnt how to play well, see if you still agree.

[47outs]

Well if the Falls grew boobs I would look at them everyday too. I live so close to them I can hear them rumble all day. They're cool but it doesn't matter so much when you live here.



outs

[jtr]

Lansing, why do you post here or read these forums at all? Serious question.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising AQs preflop is this...

a) a raise only gets action from a hand that is dominating AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhahahhahahhahahhah!

ahem... whew, hang on a sec...

Bwahahahahahhahahah!

WTF?

[Grisgra]

I haven't played full 3/6 for a long time, so take my answer with a grain of salt.

You're probably beaten by KQ or JT or two-pair. BUT because you didn't raise preflop, the turn raiser may not put you on an ace with a really good kicker. So it seems to *me*, not knowing anything about the particular passivity of 3/6 full, that he could have raised the turn with an Ax that you're beating.

Meaning that if you're calling the turn, call the river for one more bet.

If you had raised preflop, and he made the same move on you, I'd be more inclined to fold.

I'd be interested in comments on my thinking as well . . . make sense? Or am I too optimistic in thinking that the raiser might have something like A9 around 15%+ of the time?