45s 200-400 hand

[Diplomat]

6-handed 200-400 HE. UTG, a young loose aggressive player raises. A weak player playing scared money cold-calls, a tight, tough player cold calls on the button, I call in the big blind with 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

The flop is A /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check, checked to the button who bets. I call, UTG folds, weak player thinks for a moment and calls.

The turn is the T /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check, the weak player checks, the button bets, I checkraise, the weak player tanks then folds, the button calls.

The river is the 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I bet, the button raises. I three-bet, he four-bets, I call.

Thoughts? I think my play on all streets was debatable.

-Diplomat

[James282]

I don't particularly like the turn check-raise against these loose aggro types because it forces you to dedicate 3 bets to the pot regardless of whether you hit on the end or not. Granted you have a lot of equity here(if he isn't drawing to the higher flush) and you might have some folding equity --- so the turn check-raise might come out to be about neutral ev. The rest of the hand is good, I especially like the river, I think it's the perfect amount of bets.
-James

[TStoneMBD]

your hand is strong enough here that leading out or checkraising the flop is generally going to be the better play. however, after taking the passive route on the flop i do like the checkraise on the turn if you think the button can fold his hand. i dont play anywhere near these limits tho.

[daryn]

looks like K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif or Q /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

i think you played it well on all streets. i love a turn check-raise in that spot. you put the guy playing scared money to the test and got him out of there, and the button could be betting a missed flop and fold to your turn c/r. also you have around 1.5 million outs.

i think you have to bet and 3-bet the river, and i don't think you can really 5-bet.

[NabO]

Nice play but too many raises on the river.

[gamblore99]

i didnt know such high stakes existed in toronto. The only place i know for live is rama. where do you play?

[CanKid]

Blue Heron in Port Perry spreads large games occassionally. Brantford's highest is 50/100 occassionally.

[Paluka]

This is an interesting hand. I know I like preflop. I know I like the river. Not sure about the other 2 streets.

[Diplomat]

This hand didn't happen in Toronto, but I do know of stakes up to 300-600, if you don't mind club games. 50-100, 75-150, and sometimes 100-200 go every Tuesday at Great Blue Heron. Almost every time I go, there is one 50-100 and one 75-150 or 100-200 going.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

IIRC, the Brantford game died out pretty quickly because they offered it every day that people wanted to play it. Although Toronto is a very large city, it simply lacks the poker player population to support this game on a daily basis.

That, and Brantford sucks. As Gamblor put it, it's like playing poker inside of an airplane hanger. A glittery, noisy airplane hanger.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Actually, everything post flop makes me wonder...there are a few other lines I could have taken, and would really like to hear your thoughts. Other options would have been to bet the flop; to bet the turn; or checkraise the turn and 5-bet the river. Thoughts? Other ideas?

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Note that the only opponent I called loose aggressive was the only player to fold the flop. If the button had been loose aggressive, I think a turn checkraise becomes worse.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

I'll post some more thoughts in a bit, but one thing I definitely did consider was whether or not I could get the button to fold; I thought he'd fold many but his very best hands here.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Since I checkraised the turn, I think 4 bets (or more) are fine on the river.

-Diplomat

[mike l.]

sometimes 3 bet preflop. calling is fine/standard. folding would be atrocious.

flop: i wouldve checkraised the flop. if you are calling the flop w/ an eye to checkraising the turn no matter what that is fine too.

turn: good.

river: perfect.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes 3 bet preflop. calling is fine/standard. folding would be atrocious.

flop: i wouldve checkraised the flop. if you are calling the flop w/ an eye to checkraising the turn no matter what that is fine too.

turn: good.

river: perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting preflop is horrible.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that the only opponent I called loose aggressive was the only player to fold the flop. If the button had been loose aggressive, I think a turn checkraise becomes worse.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't note that. I like it now.
-James

[mike l.]

"3 betting preflop is horrible."

no it's not. doing it at least once in awhile, especially when the preflop raiser is a clown, reraising here is a good idea. it adds significant deception to your game/image and may even set up a play on that precise hand since preflop raiser is possibly raising light and callers may be coming in light knowing that. since youre calling anyway, a good player can 3 bet here and loses very little EV wise when you factor in meta hand considerations.

if you reraise 54s here all the time you are a fool of course but if you never reraise 54s here you are missing out on something good.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
"3 betting preflop is horrible."

no it's not. doing it at least once in awhile, especially when the preflop raiser is a clown, reraising here is a good idea. it adds significant deception to your game/image and may even set up a play on that precise hand since preflop raiser is possibly raising light and callers may be coming in light knowing that. since youre calling anyway, a good player can 3 bet here and loses very little EV wise when you factor in meta hand considerations.

if you reraise 54s here all the time you are a fool of course but if you never reraise 54s here you are missing out on something good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position with a hand that it that rarely makes it to a showdown seems like a bad time to make an image play.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of position with a hand that it that rarely makes it to a showdown seems like a bad time to make an image play.

[/ QUOTE ] I would imagine that the counter-argument is that this is exactly why it's an effective image play (should it get shown down). If you open-raise in early position with 87s occassionally, I would expect that observant high-limit players wouldn't be terribly impressed; instead they would say "meh, obvious image play". But if this gets shown down, people will really take notice.

None of this is to say that I would ever make this reraise. I'm just to trying to guess why it might make sense on rare occassion against observant high-limit players. If the opponents are as clueless as many of the people in my local mid-limit games, then I would hate the reraise. I make virtually no "image plays" in my $20/40 game because just my normal game involves enough plays that suprise my opponents and change their image of me since they don't understand the game that well. I remember recently raising A8s in the cutoff after a very weak player had limped early and everyone else had folded. The big blind called as well and we saw an 889 flop three-handed. Long story short, at the showdown, the big blind is staring at my hand and shaking his head saying "I just didn't think he would raise with that".

[Luke]

Preflop and river seem good to me.

I like checking the flop and then raising if UTG bets.
With the button betting, I like calling a little better than checkraising:

1) UTG could be going for a CR with a big ace
2) You stand to gain a lot if you hit your straight or flush because they are both well disguised so let's keep some people in.
3) Getting it HU with the button isn't that desirable since there's a reasonable chance he has at least a pair given the lack of draws on the board and you hitting a 5 or 4 probably won't give you the lead
4) I don't think the chance you have of winning the pot with a turn follow through bet is that great.

As for the turn, I probably wouldn't CR there if these are the real loose types but it can't be that bad given your strong draw.

Luke

[Pensive Gerbil]

The only play that seems like a mistake to me is your three-bet on the river. IMO, the most salient possible holdings represented by your turn check-raise are two pair (e.g., T /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) or one pair with a flush draw (e.g., 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif). The button's failure to three-bet the turn suggests that he could not yet beat two pair. When the button raises your river bet, I put him on a higher flush, such as K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif. I would call the raise in case I was mistaken!

-PG