When do you fold pocket KKs or QQs?

[saunders]

Hi. I am looking for some words of wisdom regarding pocket KKs and QQs. I've been playing on party poker for about a month now and I have a certain situation that comes up over and over again - I am holding pocket KKs or QQs and I come to a point where I'm debating whether or not to fold (sorry if this is a long post - but I'm really need some guidance in this area).

Here are two examples:

Yesterday, I am dealt Kd Kc in the early position on a $1/$2 table. First guy calls, I raise, next guy calls, next guy folds, next guy raises, last four fold. First guy calls, I call, next guy calls. Four people in with $3 each.

Flop comes Td, Ah, 2h - now I'm thinking...Ace anything beats me, someone could have a flush draw, someone could have a straight draw, pocket tens beat me, even pocket twos beat me (and on party poker $1/$2 table, anyone could be betting with pocket twos).

First guy checks, I check (because I'm thinking that I may be beat), next guy checks, raiser calls. First guy calls...then it's to me. I'm thinking - I'm probably beat, this raiser is going to bet all the way to the river, I'll end up putting in three bets minimum just to see this through - so I fold (probably a scared play...I know...however, my gut and past beats in this situation are telling me to get out...not to mention, 9 times out 10 when I have pocket pair at party poker, somebody else is holding a pocket pair as well - never fails). Next guy calls.

7h is dealt on the turn - everyone checks.
6s is dealt on the river - everyone checks.
Raiser wins $15.75 with pocket QQs - I would have won.

Second example - Today I'm dealt Qc Qh in the mid position on a $1/$2 table. First guy calls, two fold, I raise, fifth guy calls, sixth guy calls, seventh guy raises, next two fold. Everyone calls the raise - 5 people in.

Flop comes 6h, Th, Ks - again, I'm thinking of all the possibilities that beat me...however, I'm also thinking that I folded yesterday when I would have won. So I stick it out. Everyone checks to the raiser, raiser bets, I call, two others call, one folds.

Turn is 8d. Everyone checks to the raiser, he bets, the three of us call. (Although, now someone could have a straight draw as well which doesn't make me any more comfortable.)

River is 6d. Everyone checks to the raiser, he bets, I call, one other calls, one folds. (Again, even more hands could beat me given this second 6 - however, I'm still thinking about yesterday and want to see this through.)

Raiser is holding pocket KKs - just as I suspected...he wins $29.50 with a full house.

So, when do you fold and when don't you fold? Now I know that I shouldn't have let yesterday's hand affect today's decision - I made a poor decision with my pocket QQs...anyone with a King would have beat me. I knew that...I guess I stuck with it just to see how it would turn out...a bit of an experiment.

However, I think my question is still valid - when do you fold pocket KKs or QQs, especially when people are betting and raising like crazy which really makes you question the strength of your hand? Am I going to have to hit trips or better just to win? Do I grit my teeth and hope my hand holds up? What?

Now, before you go crazy posting...please note that I really love this game and am still learning. Although I'm new at the game, I only play strong hands, I win a fair amount of the time, and so far I'm up a few bucks...so no need to call me an idiot or tell me to go back to the $.50/$1 tables or take up a new hobby /images/graemlins/smile.gif

However, hands that are strong before the flop really trip me up if the flop doesn't help - especially pocket KKs and QQs. I'm really looking for some strong advice here - nothing sarcastic or negative. Help a girl out /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks a lot!! Angi

[meep_42]

Push in some chips on the flop to find out where you stand.

First hand - Cap PF, you should have been the one betting out on the flop. Keep firing bets until someone raises you. It's a read after that, if the raise is a tight or passive player, chuck it.

Second hand - Raise the flop. Call a 3-bet, fold the turn unimproved. Or, fold the turn if he leads again.

-d

[MyssGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Push in some chips on the flop to find out where you stand.

First hand - Cap PF, you should have been the one betting out on the flop. Keep firing bets until someone raises you. It's a read after that, if the raise is a tight or passive player, chuck it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Have to agree with this. You don't know where you are at. You let the first guy buy the pot from you. Definitely don't check and call. Put the bet in. If he raises, you should know where you stand. If he calls, he may have a weak ace. Can you get this guy off a hand? Will he fold for a turn bet?

[Fantam]

Hi. First let me say that I am no expert, but have been reading the excellent books they recommend on this site, in particular "Small Stakes Hold' Em"
I think this is what you should do:
As both KK and QQ are excellent premium hands I agree that you dont want to unnecessarily fold them even if someone else raises.
I also agree with the previous posters, in that what you seemed to fail to do was to "protect your hand" (in both instances) by either reraising again before the flop or by betting or raising on the flop itself.
This should have the effect of thinning the field and leave you with a better understanding of whether you are likely to have the other raiser beat (by how he responds).
By just checking or calling other players raises, it is more likely that if you had the best hand that someone else would draw out on you.
Also if the other raiser kept raising (providing you dont think he is a constant "maniac" raiser) then you can probably fold for the same cost of the bet that you ended up calling anyway in your examples.
Hope this helps (and is correct advice) and good luck with your future games. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[saunders]

Thank you so much for that advice! It makes sense and I will definitely use it.

Also, I gained a deeper understanding beyond that example - you should use other people's bets as a way to gather information about what they are holding.

Which brings me to another question...

Say you are holding pocket AAs on the button. The flop contains another Ace with a possible flush draw. Someone before you checks, you bet, he calls. He does this on the flop and the turn and you assume that he has a flush draw. Then the river contains the fifth flush card and he bets. Now you assume he hit his flush.

What do you do? Do you call?

Thanks for the help and the past advice - very helpful!

Angi

[AngryCola]

The first thing I noticed, and the only thing I'll add is you should have capped the betting preflop. I can't imagine any scenerio where I wouldn't cap it with KK. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Fantam]

Hi again.
I think if you had pocket aces on the button that you should have been raising before the flop and also when you saw the possible flush draw to again protect your excellent (Ace set) hand.
Having said that, your remaining opponent may not have hit his flush and may have been bluffing.
So for one more bet I think I would definitely call. If you lost an extra bet its not the end of the world, but it would be a great shame if folding cost you a big pot instead!
Best of luck with your continuing games. /images/graemlins/grin.gif