JTo in late position

[Dave H.]

Hero holds JTo in late position.

Small pot with 3 other players. Flop is KJ7 rainbow. Early position bets and 2 others call. One bet to hero. How would you continue? Players are loose passive.

Same situation with 5 callers rather than 3. Any change?

Thanx for your help.

[Douglas Leslie]

Fold. You are probably behind already and a J or a 10 is not a clean out. The pot is too small to justify calling with this hand. Two extra callers improve the pot odds sufficiently to make it worth calling the flop with the intention of folding the turn if your hand does not improve.

[Nick Royale]

I guess small pot means unraised preflop with about 4SB. Second one I would definately raise for a freecard, since they are passive I'm likely to get one. But first one is tougher. But since the players are passive, I doubt a raise from first position would mean anything less than pair of kings I would fold with 1 to 7 from the pot.

[btspider]

i just wanted to correct a typo in the first post:

Hero holds JTo in late position.

This should read:

Hero folds JTo in late position.

[Dave H.]

Sorry, no...hero HOLDS JTo

[Douglas Leslie]

I guess this hand shows why you probably have a point!

[Nick Royale]

lol You're absolutely right!

[Dave H.]

Oh...I just GOT IT...thanx bts!

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, no...hero HOLDS JTo

[/ QUOTE ]

it was a fancy way of saying fold PF next time. offsuit connectors are terrible hands. if there was one limper to me and I had a read, I would consider raising PF. I don't like limping with this hand outside the SB.

on the flop, calling and folding are pretty close. the problem with hitting two pair is it begins to set up a broadway straight. you would also have great relative position to raise the field when you hit. i probably wouldn't call if there was someone left to act in later position or in EP who already checked. i also wouldn't call if the flop was two-tone and discounted my outs.

[Dave H.]

Assuming several limpers, doesn't SSHE say to play this from late position?

Thx again.

[btspider]

it may. i don't like doing it with 1 or 2 limpers. with 1 limper, I may raise with a read, otherwise I'll fold.

3 or 4 limpers, and I'll probably call on the button. i hate playing this hand in the CO if the button is loose. you also need to know if anyone behind you is aggressive.

in other words, I like to have a good handle on the table since one or two mistakes with this hand will offset the marginal profit you can make by playing it perfectly the other 80%-90% of the time.

[Emmitt2222]

Concerning the PF decision, wouldnt it be right to fold this PF in the first situation because there arent enough callers but in the second situation it would be correct? SSHE charts say play any unsuited 10 or higher in unraised pot in late position, but then isnt that also trickier because the more multiway, the weaker the offsuit hands? Basically all I am saying is I am a clueless moron and need help understanding this.

[Bodhi]

Fold preflop.

[Bodhi]

If you really want to, you can play JTo from the button if there are a lot of limpers because the pot is large. The large pot could possibly raise you from -EV to +EV, but I would probably still fold. JTo sucks /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Aaron W.]

I'm becoming more and more confused by the advice given here.

We've got advice that rasing one limper with T9s in the cutoff is good -- or at least not bad -- ( Correct Fold? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1298057&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) ).

But now there's advice here that states JTo in LP is worth folding in a 4-handed game (most likely being the same one limper plus the blinds).

Heads up, the suitedness isn't much of an edge (less of an equity edge if you flop a draw), so isn't JTo a better hand in this position?

Am I missing something?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm becoming more and more confused by the advice given here.

We've got advice that rasing one limper with T9s in the cutoff is good -- or at least not bad -- ( Correct Fold? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1298057&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) ).

But now there's advice here that states JTo in LP is worth folding in a 4-handed game (most likely being the same one limper plus the blinds).

Heads up, the suitedness isn't much of an edge (less of an equity edge if you flop a draw), so isn't JTo a better hand in this position?

Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this situation a 4-handed game or a 4-handed pot? Hero said "3 others in the pot" -- which leads me to believe he's not counting the blinds, and it isn't a 4-handed game. Consequently, the advice doesn't seem to run counter to what I'd expect.

The advice about T9s is pretty damned marginal, regardless. Chris likes raising (his PFR is around 17% at 3/6, if I remember correctly) and does so frequently; I've learned to raise more from him, but T9s isn't a must-raise there. I think JTo is a pretty easy fold here preflop, but I fold that hand more than most do.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm becoming more and more confused by the advice given here.

We've got advice that rasing one limper with T9s in the cutoff is good -- or at least not bad -- ( Correct Fold? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1298057&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) ).

But now there's advice here that states JTo in LP is worth folding in a 4-handed game (most likely being the same one limper plus the blinds).

Heads up, the suitedness isn't much of an edge (less of an equity edge if you flop a draw), so isn't JTo a better hand in this position?

Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm saying he should consider raising if its 1 limper to him.. that is consistent with the T9s comment (which I'd be less inclined to raise than JTo).

4 see the flop.. i assume hero didn't raise PF.. so 1 is the BB.. that leaves 2 limpers, one who may be the SB.. so 1 or 2 limped to him in LP. i assume a 10-handed game here.

i don't like limpoing JTo after only 1 or 2 limpers when I have no reads on the button + blind.

[pointcount]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming several limpers, doesn't SSHE say to play this from late position?

Thx again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont believe it does. I think it says you can call suited connectors because they have better strength in multiway pots for their added flush potential.

[PhatPots]

JTo should be folded preflop. But assume that you do play it, I would have to assume that I am behind. I would fold with 3 others in the pot, I don't have the pot odds to cahse. With 5 players, it is still a fold unless it was raised preflop, then the pot would have gotten big and it wouldn't be so bad to chase.

Cheers
Pots

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, no...hero HOLDS JTo

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Piiop]

Preflop debate aside, the correct action on the flop is to call and it's a pretty easy decision. With more callers in the pot, it would make it an easier call.

Since you didn't give the preflop action very clearly, I'm assuming 3 players limped, the Hero limped, SB folded, and BB called. This, plus the flop bet and 2 calls, makes the pot 8.5:1 when it gets to you. You have 2 J's, 3 T's, and backdoor straight outs. So, it's a kind of close call, but you will be able to collect extra bets by being in a later position when you do hit, therefore your implied odds are good.

[SlantNGo]

JTo is a call from LP according to SSH.