JJ facing an all-in on a coordinated flop

[Luke]

This is from Party's Super Monday $150+12. I'm pretty green when it comes to MTTs so hopefully I can get some good pointers here.

One question is, if I'm looking to play about 1 big MTT per week and only spend $100 - $200 per T on my early "tuition", what are some good tournaments to play in?

Anyway, this is fairly early in the T, there are about 600 players left and top 100 or so get paid. I have very iffy reads at best on the players at my table.

UTG + 2 was a smidge aggressive, especially postflop, and the BB seemed to play more hands than the average player at the table.

I'm not sure about my image as I'd played a few hands so far but hadn't gotten involved postflop too much yet.

Here's the hand. I'd appreciate comments on each of my decision points including the preflop call, flop raise and then facing the flop CR.

Thanks in advance:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 (t930)
CO (t1245)
Hero (t950)
SB (t1220)
BB (t855)
UTG (t1035)
UTG+1 (t740)
UTG+2 (t525)
MP1 (t1400)
MP2 (t1100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t55</font>, MP1 calls t55, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t55, SB folds, BB calls t35.

Flop: (t230) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t55</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t350</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t800 (All-In)</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero??

[zaxx19]

Even if your very advanced in NLH cash games and have the bankroll too start @ 100-200$ buyins id advise against it being a starting point. Although play in smaller buyin tourneys maybe alot less challenging; you can get so much more experience playing 5x as many tourneys @ 20 dollars and the play wont be as different as some on this forum will lead you too believe.(Ive watched many top big guy in players online for pointers and was shocked at some competition even @ 500$ was) If your filthy rich and just busy knock yourself out with 100 tourneys but be ready for lots of aggressive play. In the lower buy ins you ll be seeing more flops and going further earlier so as too get more of a feel for complete stage by stage tourney play. IMHO one tourney a week isnt really gonna develop your game alot either so many of these people online play like 2+ tournies a day so.....Try like at least 3 per week if you have the time.

[nsj]

Re: the hand....

You've committed 45% of your stack when you get pushed on.
What can you put him on that beats you right now? A set is possible, I suppose. 88, TT, two overclubs, and occasionally, 9A, are probably more likely.

I would have trouble folding here.

[Luke]

Thanks for the advice zaxx.

Playing more than a 1 or 2 a week though would be tough as I work full time and try to put in solid hours in my normal limit ring game.

What specific tournaments do you recommend? I'm certainly willing to play lower stakes if viable alternatives exist, just not higher than $200 per T. I'm also willing to play on other sites (PStars, UB, etc).

Luke

[Luke]

It seems as though I committed 40% of my stack with my raise 350/(950-55) but that's nit picky.

Is 40-45% too much in this spot if I want to be able to get away from my hand if I don't like the subsequent action?

I really wanted to crush the odds of anyone drawing and hopefully take the pot down right there.

Perhaps a bet of of 300 would have had the same effect and been less detrimental to my stack if I had to let go?

Luke

[Lloyd]

Pre-flop I would raise. You've got the 4th best possible hand but it's a tricky one to play post flop if any overcards hit. You want to try and isolate the UTG+2 raiser as much as possible. By smooth calling, you are giving odds to people behind you to make the call with more speculative hands. So I would make a pot-size raise to T200. Maybe you win the pot right then. At the very least you should get the BB to fold and maybe the MP caller.

You need to put your opponent on a range of hands. He could have 99-AA or even overcards like AK or AQ, especially if they are clubs. His flop bet just doesn't seem right for a monster hand. There is an obvious straight and flush draw on the board so you would think that if he has a monster hand he would protect it with a pot-size bet, not one that is 20% of the flop. When people make a small bet like that, I've often seen them trying to buy a card cheaply on a draw so that's a decent possibility.

If he has the AKc or AQc you are actually a little behind here. Against the range of 99-AA, AK, AQ you are a slight favorite.

It all comes down to your willingness to gamble a bit. I think you have a small edge and I'd be inclined to call and hold my breath.

[Luke]

Pre-flop I would raise. You've got the 4th best possible hand but it's a tricky one to play post flop if any overcards hit.

I gave some serious thought to this but then I decided that I was just going to play my jacks for set value considering the earliness of the tournament and the relatively deep stacks.

But I'm completely open to the possibility of raising being a better play. With queens I'd definetely raise here.

Thanks for your other comments, but I'm not sure you followed the flop action. The PF raiser did NOT bet, a cold caller did, I raised and then the BB CRed all-in. Then it was folded back to me.

Luke

[TheDrone]

I would fold to the check raise because I see this play much more with a hand that is ahead of JJ (like two pair or a set) than a hand that is behind.

[MLG]

If you aren't intimidated by rebuys then a cheap way to get great experience is th $10 rebuy on stars. Deffinitely great value for your money.

[Luke]

MLG,

I'll check them out - thanks!

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I decided that I was just going to play my jacks for set value

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're playing for set value, then you fold since you didn't hit your set.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
but I'm not sure you followed the flop action. The PF raiser did NOT bet, a cold caller did, I raised and then the BB CRed all-in. Then it was folded back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about missing that. It certainly increases the possibility of a set although I still think overcards are fairly likely. I have seen this pattern time after time. Somebody makes a small bet on the flop when there is a strong draw. There's a raise and the original bettor re-raises all-in. More often than not I've been up against overcards. I still think it's essentially a coin flip and I would probably make the call.

[Luke]

Lloyd, my man, you're still not reading the action correctly. You said:

There's a raise and the original bettor re-raises all-in.

UTG + 2 was the PF raiser - he checked the flop. MP, a PF cold caller was the initial flop bettor, then I raised from the button and then the BB sprung to life with a CR all-in.

UTG+2, the original PF bettor folded. MP, the flop bettor, folded. Then I had a decision to make.

Luke

[Lloyd]

Man, I'm just blowing it today. I'm getting ready to go out of the country and am just scattered right now.

Now I'd probably fold. Very different situation and the UTG probably has you beat, figured he'd get someone to take a stab at the pot, and is making an overbet to protect his hand.

[betgo]

With a flop like this, there is a good chance your opponent is pushing with a strong draw (flush draw plus overcards, flush and straight draw, or pair and draw) in which case you are about 50-50. Since you are getting about 3-1 pot odds at this point, you might be able to call.

If you view entry fees as a learning expense, you might better off starting in tournaments you can do well in. My first tournament win was $225 in a $1 tournament.

When I first won some entries into relatively big money online tournaments, I felt it helped my game seeing more how the game should be played, particularly early on.

Ben Afleck has apparently become pro or semipro level, and I am sure that it helped that he had the money to lose on big tournaments and cash games while he was learning. If you can afford the lessons or enjoy playing at that level and stakes, then go ahead and play in the $200 tournaments.

[Luke]

I folded and the BB did not show.

Thanks for all the comments and advice.

Luke

[HoldingFolding]

My basic take on this is that the BB only had to put T35 in to get to see the flop, so he has the odds to play with connectors, small pps, A + whatever or a couple of picture cards. If you were playing tight, your pre-flop bet says premium cards. He definitely hit, but you have no way of knowing whether he's playing for the straight, the flush or has already made 2 pair or trips. I'd rule out A9. I'd fold.

I brought up JJ in EP early in an MTT in another thread. I formed the conclusion that a 4BB raise followed by cautious post flop play was he best MO. However, having already been raised, I'm not sure I would have had the temerity to reraise - if you did and you were up against AA, KK, AK you are going to be reraised. Perhaps some sort of mini-raise would have kept BB out of the hand....

I think I would have ended up playing it virtually the same way you did, the post flop MPT1 raise was weak ("if everyone missed can I have it") and I would have sprung for T250 then bailed at the all in.

These are exactly the sort of hands I'm wrestling with in early MTTs and losing a quarter of my chips without getting to showdown, so I find it worthwhile to reflect on them without the clock ticking...

[betgo]

You are a 3-1 dog versus two pair and even versus a strong draw. You are practically beaten against a straight or set. It is pretty unlikely you are ahead against TT, A9, or a simple open ended draw. Your opponent knows you have a strong hand and will probably call, so he must have a strong hand. Since this is a $200, you have to assume he knows what he is doing.

I would go ahead and make a pot odds call, and probably be out of the tournament.