Over cards a little different [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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BottlesOf

11-24-2004, 04:44 AM

Good 5/10 game, don't know how much individual reads are important here..

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

River: (13.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB
Main Pot: 13.20 BB, between CO, Button, BB and Hero.

Tosh

11-24-2004, 10:44 AM

I think its fine.

AviD

11-24-2004, 11:30 AM

Looks fine JBB, figuring your K and Q outs are good...probably sucking wind to 99/88/55 the whole way, but you have the odds to draw to your overcards.

chson

11-24-2004, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good 5/10 game, don't know how much individual reads are important here..

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

River: (13.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB
Main Pot: 13.20 BB, between CO, Button, BB and Hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop to clean up some of those outs man!

Tosh

11-24-2004, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop to clean up some of those outs man!

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently the most overused phrase on this board IMO.

Evan

11-24-2004, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop to clean up some of those outs man!

[/ QUOTE ]
If someone played any combination of the cards on the board and your cards how likely is it that they'll fold once they hit?

TommyO

11-24-2004, 01:01 PM

Raising pre-flop and then checking/calling to the river should make it obvious you have over cards to anyone who is paying attention. When the ace hits on the river, I think I'd take a stab at the pot and fold if raised. It only has to work 1 in 13 times to be profitable.

BottlesOf

11-24-2004, 02:16 PM

Oh, I think one might fold K/Q with bottom pair, maybe second (but probably not--although people do make horrendous folds just as they make horrendous calls), BUT, the reason I check called is I don't see anyone play a hand like Q6 behind a raise. (And if someone was, you're right, they're certainly not folding this flop)

BottlesOf

11-24-2004, 02:17 PM

Someone hit a naked ace, but all 6 of my outs were clean.

Evan

11-24-2004, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think one might fold K/Q with bottom pair....I don't see anyone play a hand like Q6 behind a raise. And if someone was, you're right, they're certainly not folding this flop

[/ QUOTE ]
That second part was what I meant

scrub

11-24-2004, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I think one might fold K/Q with bottom pair, maybe second (but probably not--although people do make horrendous folds just as they make horrendous calls), BUT, the reason I check called is I don't see anyone play a hand like Q6 behind a raise. (And if someone was, you're right, they're certainly not folding this flop)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with JBB and Evan that there is little utility in betting KQ here to try to get pair + K/Q kicker to fold.

On the other hand, JBB may have the best hand right now, and if he does, presumably he would want unpaired cards to fold. I don't think this is a situation where this is a big consideration, but in a situation where two guys had fives or sevens and brain damage and nobody else had a pair, JBB would like to get unique unpaired cards to fold. Again, I don't think that this is a good enough reason to bet in this spot, but there are spots where the "nobody's going to fold Q6" reasoning doesn't apply when you're holding overs.

Edit: changed "unique overcards" to "unique unpaired cards"

scrub

Tosh

11-24-2004, 04:38 PM

Who do you expect to fold Q6 for 1 bet here? A good player certainly won't, a bad player won't, so who are we getting this utility from?

J.R.

11-24-2004, 04:43 PM

his point is there is another line of reasoning seperate from the "clean up our outs" (i.e. get soemone to fold Q6) argument which independently may justify a flop bet

Tosh

11-24-2004, 05:08 PM

Eh? I still don't see who folds Q6/K4 or whatever hand we're talking about.

EDIT: And IMO saying there is still a chance of Chris having the best hand is like saying there's a chance there could be an alien invasion tomorrow.

sthief09

11-24-2004, 05:18 PM

ironically, with AK I probably would've chucked it on the turn

BottlesOf

11-24-2004, 05:22 PM

Not ironic. Qs are generally cleaner than As. That being said, I don't think I could've chucked it with that pot size.

BottlesOf

11-24-2004, 05:24 PM

I'm not sure how important it is to eliminate people with unique unpaired overcards. If someone has a T and hits it, I don't really care unless it gives them 2 pair. I'm operating under the assumption that I cannot win unimproved and that I need to hit one of my higher pair cards to have a shot.

J.R.

11-24-2004, 05:47 PM

Don't shoot the messenger, I was just pointing out that you missed the thrust of his post (about which I didn't make a comment approving or disproving of), which did conclude with this:

Again, I don't think that this is a good enough reason to bet in this spot,

Tosh

11-24-2004, 05:56 PM

Nevermind I misread 'there is little utility in betting', as 'there is A little utility in betting.