Everyone limps. You look down in the BB and see...

[sammy_g]

Assume a 10-handed game.

[edge]

All of them, although maybe checking with 76s out of position would be good too.

[Yobz]

I agree: all of them. AA has to be bet for value, same as JJ, the others get trickier:
55 if you flop a set you want people to feel obligated to stay in the pot, easy fold if there is a bet/raise to you (unless you are getting 22:1, which you might)
AKo you have to raise for value and because you have the best of it at the time.
67s I might consider checking, but if you flop a straight, flush, or straight flush you are going to be very happy and you want, once again, to have people feel obligated to call.
These hands can all make monsters, hands i wouldnt raise:
96s (even though they are soooted), Ax unless x is K or Q. Axs unless x=KQJT
55 is pretty borderline, though...I might check 44 and lower (I would probably check 55 here, too, although a raise isnt bad)

Anyone disagree with me? Feel free to flame away...

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
55 is pretty borderline, though...I might check 44 and lower (I would probably check 55 here, too, although a raise isnt bad)

Anyone disagree with me? Feel free to flame away...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're 7.5:1 to make a set, and you'll probably be getting 9:1, so you'll have the pot odds and then some. Anyone who limps will probably call one more, I'm assuming everyone will stay in if they already called one.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
55 is pretty borderline, though...I might check 44 and lower (I would probably check 55 here, too, although a raise isnt bad)

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes 55 different from 44 or even 22? If you flop a set you bet the hell out of it, if you don't you fold. In what way does 55 have an edge over 44?

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
55 is pretty borderline, though...I might check 44 and lower (I would probably check 55 here, too, although a raise isnt bad)

Anyone disagree with me? Feel free to flame away...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're 7.5:1 to make a set, and you'll probably be getting 9:1, so you'll have the pot odds and then some. Anyone who limps will probably call one more, I'm assuming everyone will stay in if they already called one.

[/ QUOTE ]

making set < > winning hand

Paul

[mistrpug]

Forget about debating 55. We should be talking about the significant number of people who didn't vote for JJ or AKo! That's a terrible mistake.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
All of them, although maybe checking with 76s out of position would be good too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking with 76s looks good because you get a free look, but if you're gonna play them for straight AND flush possibility, I'd like the A-rag suited and rare K-rag suited out of my way, so I'd probably raise it. Thoughts on this ? Perhaps they wouldn't get out because the whole table limped ?

[sourbeaver]

Almost none from my perspective.

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking with 76s looks good because you get a free look, but if you're gonna play them for straight AND flush possibility, I'd like the A-rag suited and rare K-rag suited out of my way, so I'd probably raise it. Thoughts on this ? Perhaps they wouldn't get out because the whole table limped ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think anyone is going to fold for one more bet getting at least 11:1. I raise them all for value. If everyone limps (assuming they're holding random hands), I raise all the hands for value.

If this is a tight table, but for some miraculous reason, everyone picked up a good hand, I probably only raise AA, JJ, AKo.

[AQheartbreak]

All but the AK offsuit. This is a multiway pot, and One pair probably won't win. you can make an arguement for value, but I would try to check-raise on the flop with the AK if i hit, to eliminate the field. With all the pairs, its pure value, Flopping a set is great, JJ is the preflop raise, muck the flop hand. Aces probably won't win, but they can (counterfieting is so fun with aces). 55, obviously you want the set. And the 67s I love suited connectors in a big multiway pot. out of position with it? eh, position isn't that important in a large field, its more important in 2-4 way pots.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
All but the AK offsuit. This is a multiway pot, and One pair probably won't win. you can make an arguement for value...

[/ QUOTE ]

You have excellent pot equity against 9 random hands. By not raising, you are giving up a EV+ situation.

That said, you do make some good points even though I disagree with your conclusion. A big offsuit hand isn't ideal for a multi-way pot like this, but AKo is strong enough to overcome the disadvantage of not being suited.

Also, your wanting to checkraise the field after you check if a ace or king hits is compelling. By your reasoning, you're passing up a slight advantage hoping to have a big advantage on the flop [I think that's what you're saying]. However, I think you are underestimating how much of an advantage you have over the field preflop.

[schroedy]

I am raising JJ and 55 both for the same reason -- value bet to flop a set.

I am checking AA for deception, and because so many times I will like the flop and want to checkraise to chase people out (or give them the wrong odds to call). The thinking is that my overpair is best on many flops, and with a small pot I will be able to get rid of more of these limpers. I can see the flip side of building value, and the argument can be compelling, but in general my BB play is passive to begin with (some days I just check blind as a policy out of the BB and wait for the critical part of the hand).

AK I am not raising because it will have difficulty against a big field.

I think 76s is overrated, although I would consider a raise with JTs or T9s . . . or maybe if I was WAY up for the day 98s. When I make my straight I want others to hit some kind of hand so I like JT and T9 a LOT more than 76, 87, etc.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I am checking AA for deception

[/ QUOTE ]

You're giving up getting 4.5 BB into the pot (of which you have tremendous equity) for deception (9 preflop calls). That's a lot dude.

[schroedy]

In some games I can just blast away and everyone keeps coming. In others, they have a maddening habit of tagging along only if they have me beat.

I just don't want to build some huge pot pre-flop so that everyone gets the right price to tag along.

I am trading in theoretical profit for a better chance at this one. I want to win THIS pot, more than I want to maximize my long term results I guess is what I am saying. With respect to both AA and AK.

Or . . . to quote a famous economist: "In the long run we are all dead."

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to win THIS pot, more than I want to maximize my long term results I guess is what I am saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this strange. However, at least you realize you're giving up profit. If you're really more interested in winning pots than money, more power to you. Check.

And come play at my table /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[BottlesOf]

Checking AA here is probably onw of the most awful mistakes one can make. Ed Miller can elaborate. If he choses not to, check out his old columns (I have no link, sorry) and see why not raising ATs after a few limpers is a HUGE mistake.

[deacsoft]

A-A, A-K, and J-J. I like to get money in the pot when I'm pretty sure I have the best hand.

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like the A-rag suited and rare K-rag suited out of my way, so I'd probably raise it. Thoughts on this ? Perhaps they wouldn't get out because the whole table limped ?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way that these hands, or any other, will fold to a single raise after having called a bet.

[Malcom Reynolds]

The fact that AA, JJ, AK and 55 aren't all nearly 100% is alarming, as I thought most posters here had their preflop game down cold. I mean, those aren't even close. 67s is the only one worth talking about.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I am checking AA for deception

Deception is useful in small pots with thinking players. You need to reread Theory of Poker: you play straightforward even against good players when the pot is large and/or multiway.

You have SO much equity here that raising AA out of the blind is printing money for yourself. Your 'deception' is not going to gain you more money than all those lost bets you could have trapped them for preflop.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
In some games I can just blast away and everyone keeps coming. In others, they have a maddening habit of tagging along only if they have me beat.

I just don't want to build some huge pot pre-flop so that everyone gets the right price to tag along.

I am trading in theoretical profit for a better chance at this one. I want to win THIS pot, more than I want to maximize my long term results I guess is what I am saying. With respect to both AA and AK.


[/ QUOTE ]

Everything about your post is illogical.

Firstly checking for deception against this field with AA is just plain awful.

You also say you want to maximise your chance of winning this pot as a reason to not raise AK/AA but say you'd raise JJ and 55, er wtf.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
In what way does 55 have an edge over 44?

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way does TT have an edge over 99?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In what way does 55 have an edge over 44?

[/ QUOTE ] In what way does TT have an edge over 99?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you heard? 44 is better than 77 on these forums.

Justin A

[adamstewart]

Great Post Sammy G. Got me thinking... To be honest, I've never really raised hands like 55 from the Big Blind. Perhaps this is a leak in my game.

It is rare, though, that we will have 10 limpers in a hand.

So, Let's say I have 55 in Big Blind. Generally speaking, how many limpers does it take before I should raise with such a hand??

Adam

[MrDannimal]

I just pulled out SSHE, and in the Loose Games (6-8 seeing the flop) section, the recommendation for raising from the BB is:

AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AK, AQ

So apparently 55 isn't quite as obvious as you'd think. I'm assuming that you lose often enough even when hitting a set combined with position is why 55 would be a check/see play.

I don't think raising is bad, mind you, I'm just laying out why I don't think it's a clear raise, like you claim.

[Tosh]

How are there 10 people who won't raise AA, not to mention 52 who won't raise JJ?

[Malcom Reynolds]

I'm assuming that you lose often enough even when hitting a set combined with position is why 55 would be a check/see play.

You are 7.5 to 1 to hit a set or better. You will win a very high percentage of those times because the "or better" includes a full house and quads, and those times you hit a set you have a very strong draw to full house or quads. And sets hold up unimproved a tremendous amount of the time.

So when EVERYONE limps to you, raising here is for value, since you have pretty good equity in this pot. With 10 people in the pot, you even have a bit of overlay for those times you don't win after you hit your set. So the same way a flush draw can raise the flop profitably, 55 in the BB when it's a family pot is raising preflop profitably.

When there are 5 players to the flop, raising works as a high variance, higher expectation play, as you will usually make up the difference through implied odds. When there are fewer, you aren't as happy to play it for two bets.

I don't know why it's not in SSHE, but I've seen it discussed in the forums.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that AA, JJ, AK and 55 aren't all nearly 100% is alarming, as I thought most posters here had their preflop game down cold. I mean, those aren't even close. 67s is the only one worth talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I would check 76s but that is the only one here that is even close.