Big pot, crappy river, what's your play? [Archive]

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nolanfan34

11-24-2004, 01:53 AM

Assume average Party table. Table had been a little on the tight/passive side, which made the PF action a little strange. Player to my direct left I believe
is a 2+2er, but I'm not positive, if that makes a difference.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero ??

Who bets out again? Who checks with the intention of calling? What about if you bet out and are raised or C/R'ed?

craig r

11-24-2004, 02:35 AM

I have the same problem at the end. My natural tendency is to check and call. With so many callers on the flop you have to put one on a Q with a crappy kicker. But, even though i am winning 2.4/100 at this same game, i think my river play needs help. so, i am curious what others answer.

if you do bet the end and are c/r or raised, you have to call. the pot is too big to fold.

craig

nolanfan34

11-24-2004, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you do bet the end and are c/r or raised, you have to call. the pot is too big to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still call if it's 3-bet back to you and you have to call two cold, not closing the action?

Also, bump for the morning crowd. I want to hear some more lines on this hand.

Thoughts on previous streets are appreciated as well, although I thought they were standard.

Walrus

11-24-2004, 12:09 PM

I bet the river, and call a raise. Fold if it's 2 bets back to me. I don't think anyone has a Q because no one took a shot at it on the flop.

prrthd

11-24-2004, 12:16 PM

I would probably check/call, however my river play has been a little passive lately. If you do bet out and it comes back to you 3-bet you have to fold.

theghost

11-24-2004, 12:28 PM

Am I crazy to be thinking check/fold? I gotta think one of these guys is holding a Q.

Walrus

11-24-2004, 12:41 PM

Am I crazy to be thinking check/fold? I gotta think one of these guys is holding a Q.

You may be right about the Q, I didn't see there were still 2 to act behind hero. But I would have to check, call 1 back to me, fold for 2.

btspider

11-24-2004, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I crazy to be thinking check/fold? I gotta think one of these guys is holding a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding for one bet possibly closing the action would be ridiculous. double-check the size of the pot in case you misread it. ok, now triple check it /images/graemlins/smile.gif you have to be good 4%-5% of the time..

nolanfan34

11-24-2004, 01:49 PM

OK, you guys pretty much covered the different thought processes I tried to go through in the 15 sec or so that Party allows.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, SB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

 So, in the end, I decided to go with a check/call line. Given the lack of action on the flop, I think I could have also bet here and called a single raise. 

Final Pot: 22 BB
Main Pot: 22 BB, between Hero and MP2. > Pot won by Hero (22 BB).

Hero has Ad Kd (two pair, aces and queens).
MP2 has 8h Ac (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 22 BB.

Heh heh. This is a nice reminder to not fold on the end for a single bet, although folding never crossed my mind in a pot this large. MP2 I later figured out quickly was certainly NOT a 2+2er.

Bodhi

11-24-2004, 01:50 PM

If your table really is tight and passive, then I think checking the river here is fine. You can't bet the river for value against tight-passives who won't bet the flop with top pair, but who will bet or raise the river if checked to (with trips). I think you need a pretty good read though not to bet out on the river; were you using PT?

nolanfan34

11-24-2004, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If your table really is tight and passive, then I think checking the river here is fine. You can't bet the river for value against tight-passives who won't bet the flop with top pair, but who will bet or raise the river if checked to (with trips). I think you need a pretty good read though not to bet out on the river; were you using PT?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I will embarrassingly admit that I haven't gotten up to speed with PT still. It's on my to do list, but when I have time to tinker with it, I usually end up just playing instead.

Anyway, I will say that I didn't have a specific read on any one person being passive enough to be holding a Q, but with 4 opponents on the river, I didn't see the advantage in betting out. I'm probably only getting raised if I'm beat, but I can't really fold. All of the JT and KT hands that missed their draws aren't going to call. I may extract a bet from a weaker Ace, but I can pick them off anyway if they bet, which is what happened here.

I have seen enough strange slowplay on Party lately that I wouldn't have been surprised to see AQ here either.

I agree that overall, it's probably a borderline value bet at the most.

Bodhi

11-24-2004, 02:37 PM

I've only been playing poker for about 3-4 months now, and I just recently paid for the full version of PT almost 2 weeks ago. YOU MUST USE POKER TRACKER!!! You're at a huge disadvantage against those of us who do. It will pay for itself quickly. You will be able to identify, within 25 hands or so, the fish, rocks, TAGs, LAGs and all the rest. Moreover, you can use this information when deciding whether to value bet, use trickery against thinking opponents, and fold when a really passive player raises. Do yourself a favor and invest an hour in making PT work for you. Cheers! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif