PP w/ overcard on non-drawish flops [Archive]

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Saborion

11-24-2004, 12:26 AM

What is your general plan as the PFR on boards like this? Assume typical loose-passive Party 2/4 limit players.

My impression has been that if you bet all the way you'll sometimes lose to TP, sometimes win since they've been calling you down with a lower pair. And if you sometimes check the river, they sometimes check behind with TP/crappy kicker. I *believe* I'm beat more often than not after having been called on the flop and turn. Should I be more inclined to check the river hoping for a free showdown since, in my experience, they have me beat more than 50 % of the time here?

I'm more happy about firing again on the turn the lower the top card is, since they the have more overcards to call with on the flop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)

Nick C

11-24-2004, 04:23 AM

Both of these flops scare me. The first one scares me because there's a king on the board and one of my opponents is a preflop raiser. The second one scares me because there's a king and I have four opponents and three of them cold-called two after my preflop raise.

I'd bet out on the first flop (if BB checked to me) and fold if Button raised (or if BB checkraised). If Button just called, I'm not sure what I'd do on the turn (and this is especially true if BB also called). But I guess I'd bet out again, again planning to fold if Button raised (well, unless I caught a set, obviously).

I don't know, though. If Button is passive preflop, then I'm thinking the chances I'm in trouble with that flop are very good.

On the second flop, I guess I'd bet out (if checked to), planning to fold if raised. If I didn't get raised but got two or more callers, I'm not sure what I'd do on the turn. What I'd probably do, again, is bet (on a non-ace turn) and fold to a raise (unless I'd caught a set).

In both hands, if I kept getting called, I'd have trouble firing again on the river.

Anyway, these hands give me trouble too, so I'm responding in part to bump this thread and hope others will respond so I can see what they say.

pokerkai

11-24-2004, 04:46 AM

Im inclined to check the first hand...sometimes itll be bet and raised and you can dump this hand fairly safely. If it gets checked to the button he will be more then happy to bet it with his TT, JJ, AQ, AJ, AT hands and you can checkraise to thin the field. Without the preflop cap from button, it suggests he doesnt have AK and so Id be willing to say the only hands your paying off are KQ and KJ.

By checkraising you also give yourself the chance of making QQ, JJ fold. KQ and KJ are not likely to raise the turn after a flop checkraise from a preflop 3better so in a way, your legitimizing any turn raise you run into.

On the second hand, I would lead out, your hand is very strong and youve only got aces to dodge assuming there isnt a king already out there. If nobody has a king, they will be hardpressed to draw out on you.

Danenania

11-24-2004, 06:23 AM

I think both rivers will be extremely situational. Betting the flop and turn is the important thing in both hands. Then you can make a river decision based on reads and the board.