KQo against a PF 3-Bet

[Grease]

I really want to improve my KQ play, and I think that I played this one pretty sloppily. Is the PF raise ok? Is the flop as bad as I think it is? Thanks for helping me out.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[MoreWineII]

Doesn't look bad to me at all.

I open-raise KQo from early position too.

You flopped top pair, good kicker, 2nd nut flush draw. I think that's worth a raise. Oops, gosh, reading is hard. Didn't notice it was a check-raise. Just bet out here.

Turn, ok.

River, good. I don't like chancing this being checked through.

[J.R.]

I don't get the point of the flop check-raise. Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[DataMiner]

I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees). If you get re-raised, you're likely looking at AK/AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. Assuming you don't improve, you lose to all of these. If you hit your K, you're only beating 15 hands: QQ (3 hands), JJ (6 hands), or TT (6 hands) and losing to 21 hands: AK (12 hands), AA (6 hands), or KK (3 hands). If you hit your queen, you're currently beating AK, but you can still be beaten if he spikes his ace.

So, getting 3-bet PF is ugly. Given that you should _fold_ KQo to any PFR, raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.

That said, you should bet out on the flop. Even if you're behind right now, you have up to nine outs to make the second-nut flush.

The turn check is totally correct as is the river bet.

Just...don't PFR KQo in early position. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a totally valid alternative. If your opponent is quite aggressive and you believe he'll bet/call all the way down, let him do the betting for you. If you make the flush, bet. If he's passive once the flop comes, I'd still bet out on the flop.

[MoreWineII]

I haven't found being dominated with KQo to be a recurring problem. I almost always raise it from early position. I assumed this was pretty standard, is this a leak I didn't even know I had?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees). If you get re-raised, you're likely looking at AK/AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. Assuming you don't improve, you lose to all of these. If you hit your K, you're only beating 15 hands: QQ (3 hands), JJ (6 hands), or TT (6 hands) and losing to 21 hands: AK (12 hands), AA (6 hands), or KK (3 hands). If you hit your queen, you're currently beating AK, but you can still be beaten if he spikes his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but most of the time you don't get 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]

So, getting 3-bet PF is ugly. Given that you should _fold_ KQo to any PFR, raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the reason you're wrong is called the "gap concept" but basically it's that when you raise, you have increased equity in that everyone might fold and no reason to believe anyone else has a very strong hand, whereas when facing a raise, you don't have these things.

[MHarris]

The flop checkraise is unnecessary, you're either way ahead or behind here. Any hand you're ahead of may slow down and/or fold the turn, while A /images/graemlins/heart.gifA, A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK, and KK have you in a bunch of trouble, and AK with no /images/graemlins/heart.gif is ahead as well. I like going check/call, check/call, bet here.

Your PF raise is good here. Getting 3-bet sucks, but in return it gives you some valuable information that makes the play of your hand much easier.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is so much of a way ahead/way behind is it??

I mean unless he's got AK, or AA with The A high flush draw, you're in pretty good shape here.(or your in some trouble if he's got KK, but not horrible) I like betting out here then slowing down if he raises... unless you hit the flush.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the reason you're wrong is called the "gap concept" but basically it's that when you raise, you have increased equity in that everyone might fold and no reason to believe anyone else has a very strong hand, whereas when facing a raise, you don't have these things.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Gap Concept isn't nearly as profound in small stakes games.

There are at least half a dozen threads at 2+2 discussing whether KQo should be raised preflop. In SSHE, Malmuth suggests that we stop wasting our time on this particular debate and focus on postflop play. I agree.

[DataMiner]

Edit: Irrelevant post (mixing hands).

[spamuell]

The Gap Concept isn't nearly as profound in small stakes games.

Why would you say this? With no raise or calls before you, you're up against random hands. With a raise before you, you are probably against at least one strong hand.

There are at least half a dozen threads at 2+2 discussing whether KQo should be raised preflop.

Lol, yes there are like a billion and people say the difference in EV whatever you do is very small, so I am happy not to discuss it.

I would, however, be interested to know if you have a valid reason for thinking the gap concept doesn't apply at 2/4.

[spamuell]

It is irrelevant whether you are way ahead or way behind against a gutshot.

Precisely what gutshot do you think the button has here?

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
I would, however, be interested to know if you have a valid reason for thinking the gap concept doesn't apply at 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

It _does_ apply, but not very much compared to Mid-Limit games. In particular, you'll often get cold-calls (but not re-raises) from AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99, and even smaller pocket pairs in 2/4. Against all of these hands, you're at least a slight dog. Cold calls are awesome, but only if you actually have a pot equity edge against everyone who cold calls.

[DataMiner]

Edit: Irrelevant post (mixing threads).

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Precisely what gutshot do you think the button has here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm worried about the gutshot of the Big Blind, not the button. In particular A5s. It could be A5o since this is 2/4. It could even be 65s or 63s. Or worse.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are aware that this is a head's up pot, right?

Rob

[ErrantNight]

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

i'm still not sure this calls for a check-raise, as you may need to improve your hand to win... but i don't think betting out is a terrible option. if raised, check/call the turn and consider betting the river (definitely if, as here, the hearts come).

c/r is maybe overplaying this hand a little bit... as if he doesn't have a heart (and, say, has an underpair) you may push him too easily off this hand.

so i'd say bet out, switch to call mode if he responds with aggression, and feel free to bet a heart.

[ErrantNight]

Where does SSHE agree that KQo in early position that you should limp, not raise? The only notes pertaining to this particular hand argue: "Raise any of these hands if it has not already been raised." (with a notation stating that: "If the pot is already many-handed, perhaps five or six limpers, consider just limping with AJ and KQ")

On the charts in early position: KQ is merely a limping hand in the tighter games (presumably found more frequently as you head north of 3/6), and recommended as a raising hand in loose games...

i'm not saying that this means raise them blindly... just that particularly for lower limit games the recommendations from SSHE seem SPECIFICALLY to state that raising KQo from early position is INDEED the correct play...

and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this (well, that, and I haven't had trouble with KQo when raising from early position)

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does SSHE agree that KQo in early position that you should limp, not raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 80, the table for Tight Games. (If you found Party tables that _regularly_ have 6-8 players preflop, we need to talk. /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[ QUOTE ]
and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this

[/ QUOTE ]

"[T]here have been myriad arguments about what to do with king-queen offsuit under the gun. Most of the thousands of hours spent debating this point were wasted. Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small." (SSHE, pg. 77)

Take it up with Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
"Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small."

[/ QUOTE ]

*shrug*

six of one, half a dozen of the other.

i did take it up with S/M/M, hence my previous post... but thanks for pointing it out, as the following sentence is of equal importance:

"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."

So while you present an excellent argument for just calling... it's disingenuous of you to present it and then say "and SSH says not to argue about it!"

I choose "raise" on most tables and have yet to run into a situation where I've been hard-pressed to figure out how to play post-flop. Because the difference is neglible.

[sfer]

I would be shocked, Shocked, SHOCKED!!!-- /images/graemlins/shocked.gif--if Ed does not advocate raising KQo UTG at your typical Party 2/4 table.

[sfer]

You'll get coldcalled by much worse hands much more often. Have you played Party 2/4?

[ErrantNight]

you'll get cold-calls from lots of horrendous hands... it's one of the easiest tells to pick up on of a fish... and it's a fairly common leak of otherwise decent players...

[J.R.]

Yeah, its not necessarily way behind because of the hearts, but I typed that more because the principle is the same in the sense that the optimal line involves both trying to extract the most while losing the least.

Why fold QQ/JJ/TT/AQ, and why get 3-bet by AK KK AK?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[J.R.]

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

yeah, its not nessecarily way behind unless he has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A or A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK. you are roughtly 2:1 dog to a better hand without a flush redraw, which isn't way behind. But the principle is the same as in way ahead way behind spots (especially when the opponent is aggressive and will bet worse hands postflop, which seems a safe assumption here), that's why I said that. But why risk folding TT, JJ, QQ or AQ, or getting 3-bet by better hands. Its not how far behind you are on the flop v a better hand, but the bets you miss when you fold a hand with 2 or 3 outs, and the 3 bets that get put in on the flop when you are behind.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll get coldcalled by much worse hands much more often. Have you played Party 2/4?

[/ QUOTE ]

My Small Stakes experience is exclusive to 3/6. If 2/4 is that much looser than 3/6 (especially with regard to cold calls), then go ahead and make that raise.

[HajiShirazu]

2/4 is much looser than 3/6.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this (emphasis added)

[...]

i did take it up with S/M/M, hence my previous post... but thanks for pointing it out, as the following sentence is of equal importance:

"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."

So while you present an excellent argument for just calling... it's disingenuous of you to present it and then say "and SSH says not to argue about it!"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're disagreeing for the sake of the newbs, then the following line, "Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it," is irrelevant. A newbie necessarily does not play "excellently otherwise."

[ErrantNight]

listen to yourself. are you being moronic/drunk, are you not paying attention, or did you not realize the quote about playing excellently was the next sentence in SSH?

[ QUOTE ]
Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it," is irrelevant. A newbie necessarily does not play "excellently otherwise."

[/ QUOTE ]

now listen to SSH:

[ QUOTE ]
"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."


[/ QUOTE ]

Now, what are they saying again?

Oh yes... "UNTIL," as in... until such a time, as in... while you still do not, as in... while you are still learning to...

the point being that as long as you are not currently playing excellent post flop, just pick one or the other and frickin' run with it.

if a newbie played excellently otherwise, then you would be able to have a reasonable discussion about this topic based on table texture and how the hand played out postflop (and how it might have been different had you _________). however... the preflop decision is still, ultimately moot most of the time.

i happen to think most newbs who might susceptible to your advice are playing 2/4, which is still loose enough that playing KQo for a raise is a better default play than playing KQo on a limp... and that it's still better advice to tell newbs playing 2/4 that if they're at a table they recognize as "tight" they should find a new table.

EDITED TO ADD: this is even MORE true if they're playing 1/2, or lurking from any of the micro-limits.

my only other point in that message was that it's fine for you to offer compelling reasoning that disagrees with me, but it's disingenuous to make YOUR argument and then say it's not worth arguing because SSH said so...

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't found being dominated with KQo to be a recurring problem. I almost always raise it from early position. I assumed this was pretty standard, is this a leak I didn't even know I had?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it is not a leak.

[Moyer]

I hate to bring up old topics but, what is the argument for limping w/ KQ?

[sfer]

I would be shocked, Shocked, SHOCKED!-- /images/graemlins/shocked.gif--if Ed Miller didn't prefer raising KQo UTG in a average Party 3/6 game.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
my only other point in that message was that it's fine for you to offer compelling reasoning that disagrees with me, but it's disingenuous to make YOUR argument and then say it's not worth arguing because SSH said so...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have said that the point is not worth arguing because SSHE says it's not worth arguing.

I have _not_ said that it is not worth arguing because SSHE makes it clear that you should simply call KQo early. (Is that what you thought I said? I don't even see how you could _infer_ that from my posts. That's why I quoted the line, "Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small.")

Regardless, if you're saying that there _is_ a clear choice to be made here at a 3/6 game, I totally disagree. Six of one, half a dozen of another, like you said.

As for 2/4 and below, I've already admitted that I have not played those stakes; those tables may be loose enough to warrant a preference for raising KQo early.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be shocked, Shocked, SHOCKED!-- --if Ed Miller didn't prefer raising KQo UTG in a average Party 3/6 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be at least mildly electrified if Ed felt _strongly_ about either calling or raising in an average Party 3/6. I don't suppose anyone knows how to get him to post here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be at least mildly electrified if Ed felt _strongly_ about either calling or raising in an average Party 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is it?

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't have typed "and below"; I've never played anything below 3/6. I honestly have no idea _why_ I typed "and below." I apologize for the contradiction.

As for what _I_ do with KQo at 3/6, it's irrelevant. Bad for me, good for you. It doesn't matter one way or the other at 3/6.

Edit: Ah! _This_ is the unintentionally disingenuous statement that should have been quoted earlier! I'll edit the comment where it first appears.

Edit #2: Sigh. Edit time expired. Anyhow, for anyone who reads this whole thread and gets this far, that line in my original post should read, "I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below, [but SSHE says that there is little difference between calling/raising.]"

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Just...don't PFR KQo in early position //raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I can't remember the last time i limped with KQo in a LL game. Or any game i've been in, for that matter. SSHE also agrees with raising it in EP.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you're behind right now, you have up to nine outs to make the second-nut flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

Along with any Q or K as an out.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
In SSHE, Malmuth suggests that we stop wasting our time on this particular debate and focus on postflop play. I agree

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since you posted your opinion...

Anyways, the biggest problem players have with KQo is postflop.

b

[bernie]

Post deleted by bernie

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, since you posted your opinion...

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated my opinion, he stated his, I remembered that our opinions don't matter here because SSHE writes that it's practically even. I suppose I should have simply said, "your PFR doesn't matter much" instead of voicing my opinion. C'est la vie.

[DataMiner]

Post deleted by DataMiner

[bernie]

I noticed later down the thread you dealt with the issue. So i deleted my response.

But just so you know, a blanket statement regarding how to play hands because of the limit size is wrong. It has nothing to do with the limit.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I remembered that our opinions don't matter here because SSHE writes that it's practically even

[/ QUOTE ]

Opinions matter. SSHE is not the be all/end all of opinions on the forum. It doesn't begin and end with SSHE.

b

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
But just so you know, a blanket statement regarding how to play hands because of the limit size is wrong. It has nothing to do with the limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

When playing a hand preflop, if you have no data on your opponents (at least, none was provided in the original post), what else (besides position, the cards, and the limit) can you use to determine what to do?

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't suppose anyone knows how to get him to post here.

[/ QUOTE ]



You're kidding right? Just PM him.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
Opinions matter. SSHE is not the be all/end all of opinions on the forum. It doesn't begin and end with SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more helpful to newbies if experienced players clarify information in SSHE rather than voice our valid opinions that may be contradictory to the text. For experienced players (even for Small Stakes games), discussion involving various opinions is essential. I suppose I (and others) should note when we're posting for newbies, experienced players, or both.

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
You're kidding right? Just PM him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't _usually_ like to bother Ed. But yeah, I PMed him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
if you have no data on your opponents (at least, none was provided in the original post), what else (besides position, the cards, and the limit) can you use to determine what to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

In less than an orbit, you should have an idea as to the texture of the table.

As 1 poster mentioned, raising even as the first hand you sit down(well say within the first orbit since your assuming no reads after nearly an orbit has passed if your in EP playing a hand) can tell you how some of the players play as they coldcall behind you.

I figure they're typical players there to blow chips. After all better, more solid players, stand out more than worse players. If they didn't, then i change tables.

b

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
In less than an orbit, you should have an idea as to the texture of the table.

As 1 poster mentioned, raising even as the first hand you sit down(well say within the first orbit since your assuming no reads after nearly an orbit has passed if your in EP playing a hand) can tell you how some of the players play as they coldcall behind you.

I figure they're typical players there to blow chips. After all better, more solid players, stand out more than worse players. If they didn't, then i change tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. If I were to ever return to 3/6 and have KQo early when I first sit down, I might raise (for information) rather than call. I can't think of any other hands with which I'd feel comfortable preflop raising for information. Maybe AJo.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's more helpful to newbies if experienced players clarify information in SSHE rather than voice our valid opinions that may be contradictory to the text.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree at all.

The small stakes forum isn't for newbies. It's also where SSHE was born from. You won't find much contradiction to the text anyways. But we're not here to spoonfeed a book to people learning either.

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I (and others) should note when we're posting for newbies, experienced players, or both

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone doesn't get it, they can always ask for a clarification. We always did in our many threads way back well before SSHE existed.

b

[bernie]

Funny you mention AJo. I play that pretty much the same as KQo.

b

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
The small stakes forum isn't for newbies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try telling that to the newbies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But seriously, if that's the case, then I'll assume that all posters are experienced unless there's reason for us to believe otherwise.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
But seriously, if that's the case, then I'll assume that all posters are experienced unless there's reason for us to believe otherwise

[/ QUOTE ]

This will save you hours in weeding through posts. The small stakes forum has always been the highest read/involved forum. Tons of great stuff has come out of it.

btw...Who did you think the beginners and micro forum were for?

b

[DataMiner]

[ QUOTE ]
Who did you think the beginners and micro forum were for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured beginners posted here _as well_. I guess they only post here when they have a question to ask.

[sthief09]

even if raising KQo UTG was a mistake, it wouldn't be the biggest one in this hand. the flop check-raise is going to cost you a lot of money. you let QQ, JJ, TT, or AQ off the hook and put your chips in getting the worst of it against AK, AA, and KK

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I remembered that our opinions don't matter here because SSHE writes that it's practically even

[/ QUOTE ]

Opinions matter. SSHE is not the be all/end all of opinions on the forum. It doesn't begin and end with SSHE.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

ESPECIALLY with respect to preflop decisions. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways, the biggest problem players have with KQo is postflop.



[/ QUOTE ]

Bernie,

What are the most common postflop mistakes you see with KQo?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
What are the most common postflop mistakes you see with KQo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a few:

Hand protection (this is the prime one i usually see), value betting draws, continuing on when obviously beat without the odds to chase, calling down when obviously beaten (which can stem from poor handreading or poor player profiling).

b

[Grease]

My opponent had AKo no heart. MHIG.