Looking for leaks -- how routine is this play for you?

[Greg J]

This might be the most boring post ever, but I have been finding leaks in my game in some of my most routine actions (like the raising in the blinds post I made the other day). I am just looking for reassurance. This is my standard line for playing overcards when I act in late position in a big pot. Is this routine?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Greg is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Greg raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Greg bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Greg checks.

River: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Greg bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[Entity]

Looks fine. The board isn't that coordinated (twoflush aside, 862 isn't a terrible flop for AJ, especially with one diamond).

Rob

[A_C_Slater]

It's O.K.

I would personally bet the turn and check down the river. But maybe that's a leak in my game. Does anyone feel betting the turn into 2 checking opponents with a low card rainbow board with 2 primo overs to be overly aggressive? By the checking the river I mean assuming another blank hits, not the ace as in this case.

[Greg J]

Let's say a jack hits the river, and you have shown weakness on the turn. This might induce a bet and allow you to raise.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a jack hits the river, and you have shown weakness on the turn. This might induce a bet and allow you to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they could both fold to the turn bet and the pot is yours right there. I don't think I would raise if only a jack came. You're only going to get called if you're beat. So you end up making the same af if you just bet out and got called on the turn if they have QT or some other inferior overs.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
It's O.K.

I would personally bet the turn and check down the river. But maybe that's a leak in my game. Does anyone feel betting the turn into 2 checking opponents with a low card rainbow board with 2 primo overs to be overly aggressive? By the checking the river I mean assuming another blank hits, not the ace as in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't find it overly aggressive, but with the pot being the size that it is, you've got to have some fold equity to pull it off -- and I find that I generally don't have enough to do so. I'll probably do it half the time, but it's opponent specific, more than my general line.

Rob

[jrz1972]

I like your line, but I would also be fine with betting the turn. There is actually a decent chance that your hand is good at this point. Obviously this is somewhat player-dependent; if I knew my two opponents to be competent I would be much more inclined to take the free card, but against fish you could easily be up against two smaller sets of overs.

I would play it the same way you did as a default play.

[bergh]

Generally I think that overcards against 3 opponents could sometimes be checked, but the board is only slightly coordinated, you have the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and there's a duce on the board, so betting might be better in this case.

I don't think betting the turn is good in this case. If your opponents were on a straight draw they might have paired that 5 and if not you are most likely behind...

[Redd]

If I may newbie it up a little bit here - what would you do if our Hero took the free card and (instead of the Ace) a blank fell on the river?
Redd

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
If I may newbie it up a little bit here - what would you do if our Hero took the free card and (instead of the Ace) a blank fell on the river?
Redd

[/ QUOTE ]
Check behind, since hero is in position.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I play it the same way.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I would personally bet the turn and check down the river.

You bet the flop, and got your free card, why not use it? A bet on the turn I would put in the [semi-]bluff category, and I don't think you're winning it outright on the turn often enough for this to be profitable.

And I don't think ace-high is that desperate to make it to a "free" showdown that costs 1 BB.

[srt19170]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't find it overly aggressive, but with the pot being the size that it is, you've got to have some fold equity to pull it off -- and I find that I generally don't have enough to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]

This surprises me a little bit. I find that especially with a pf raise, betting out induces a lot of folding. And even if it doesn't induce a fold on the turn, it increases the likelihood of a fold on the river bet. If you check the turn, I think most opponents will read that correctly as a high card hand, and if the river makes even a weak pair will call a river bet. If you bet the turn and the river, they may well fold a small pair fearing pockets.

In this case, UTG would probably have folded to a turn bet and that would remove any chance that he'd hit the river instead of Hero.

What's more, I think Hero's ahead the whole way on this hand. With rags on the board, don't a lot of typical loose-passives just check along hoping to hit their Q or K or whatever? So I don't get the "free" card play; I think that benefits them more than Hero.

Gee, maybe I'm too aggressive. That's a change!

-- Scott

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't find it overly aggressive, but with the pot being the size that it is, you've got to have some fold equity to pull it off -- and I find that I generally don't have enough to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]

This surprises me a little bit. I find that especially with a pf raise, betting out induces a lot of folding. And even if it doesn't induce a fold on the turn, it increases the likelihood of a fold on the river bet. If you check the turn, I think most opponents will read that correctly as a high card hand, and if the river makes even a weak pair will call a river bet. If you bet the turn and the river, they may well fold a small pair fearing pockets.

In this case, UTG would probably have folded to a turn bet and that would remove any chance that he'd hit the river instead of Hero.

What's more, I think Hero's ahead the whole way on this hand. With rags on the board, don't a lot of typical loose-passives just check along hoping to hit their Q or K or whatever? So I don't get the "free" card play; I think that benefits them more than Hero.

Gee, maybe I'm too aggressive. That's a change!

-- Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Scott,

If you find yourself regularly betting the flop, turn, and river with unpaired overcards -- even against two opponents, I think you may have a tendency to take your overcards too far.

Betting the turn here wouldn't be terrible, like I said; it just isn't my default play. It depends on pot size and what I know about my opponents. If you get to the river against them, betting here with unpaired overcards is a mistake: they are only going to fold hands that you beat anyway.

Rob

[A_C_Slater]

I agree. I almost never bet the river with ace high. That to me is crossing the boundary between aggressiveness and mania.

[srt19170]

[ QUOTE ]

If you get to the river against them, betting here with unpaired overcards is a mistake: they are only going to fold hands that you beat anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced that's true, but it's hard to know since you don't get to see the folded hands.

I don't always bet the river in this situation. I usually check if I'm acting last. But if I'm acting first, I usually bet out, figuring that I'd call a bet in that situation.

But looking back at my statistics, I'm winning &lt; 10% of my high card showdowns, so you're probably right. Although I go to SD with high-card so rarely that it's not much of a sample size. And that doesn't include hands I win where my opponents folded to my river bet -- how do I see that in PT?

Okay, I've learned something and I'm going to start using this line.

-- Scott

[flair1239]

Depending on the UTG and BB read, I am tempted to push this the whole way.

If they are semi-reasonable players (VPIP below 30%). You could probably safely assume that UTG is stuck with non-quality overcards and BB might be on a draw of some sort.

In this hand I would be more worried about BB having a small pair (maybe he played a medium connector) also obviously maybe a flush draw. I would push this on the turn and then make a decision as to whether to check the river.

If the BB and UTG are the type to play anything from the blinds or have a VPIP +35 or so... I would be more likely to check the turn through, although a leak in my game is that I hate doing that, because then I feel the need to make a crying call on the river.