$@#%!!!! Everytime I think I make a good laydown, I don't....help! [Archive]

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Alobar

11-23-2004, 06:33 PM

One of the biggest leaks in my game I think, is calling down hands I KNOW I should be folding. But it's just like some part of me inside wont fold, and I call down to satisfy my curiosity, or pray that I'm being bluffed. But whenever I sit down before a session and swear to myself I'm not going to call those hands down, I end up making stupid folds.

Here is two examples, the first hand is one I just KNEW I was beat in, but I called down because I couldnt get my finger to click the "fold" button. The second hand is one where I told myself to just fold, because you need to quit calling down. can someone help me see the difference between the two? Or did I make a good fold in the second one, or a good calldown in the first, and am just being results oriented? It just seems that it is a common thing for me, when I finally do fold a hand I think im beat, I'm not.

I had no real reads on either hand, as both hands were maybe 5 or 6 hands into a new table (They happened on completely seperate sessions, but I think are the best examples of what I'm talking about)

Hand 1

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises, MP calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button raises, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB
Main Pot: 14.20 BB, between Hero, MP and Button. > Pot won by Button (14.20 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jd Jh (two pair, jacks and twos).
MP has 8c 7c (two pair, sevens and twos).
Button has Qh 7h (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: Button wins 14.20 BB. 

Hand 2

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, SB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, between SB and UTG. > Pot won by UTG (11 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has Qs Jh (one pair, queens).
UTG has 7s Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 11 BB.

MAxx

11-23-2004, 07:20 PM

these are both kind of close to me, and i assume we have no read on these hands. sometimes we say we dont have any real reads, but often times we have slight reads that we subsquently forget about or don't think are worth mentioning. i like going with a bit of feel in these situations.

anyhow FWIW, i would be much more likely to call down hand 2 than hand one.

sometimes i would call down number one, but it depends. many opponents would take a jab at you on the turn with say a pp less than JJ. sometimes a flush draw. the river isnt pretty, but your play here actually doesnt seem bad.

hand two, I just could not let go unless there was more action. noone raised pf, so i don't realy think on avg that you have a kicker issue. again noone raised pf, so i dont really think on avg that there is a big set out there. The board has several draws, and I would tend to think there is a great possibility that villain is on a draw. You could definitely be behind to 2 pair, but you may have a redraw to that. I would be willing in most cases to see a showdown here as cheap as possible.

PokerNoob

11-23-2004, 08:01 PM

The second hand is a lot more drawy and your kicker is probably good anyway. Some buffoon could have open limped face/rag for the two pair or 22/33, but I gotta see that.

kiddo

11-23-2004, 08:41 PM

I would do the opposite of what u did. Hand 1 I would easily fold when raised (I would not call hoping to catch another J), cause who is stupid enough to raise a preflopraiser and a caller with a pair of 7s? I mean if he raise just u I would understand, but both of u? This guy is bad. Now u have a read on him.

Hand 2. Tricky but since they can be raising a draw I would think about calling and since your call on turn is part because u think maybe u are ahead (u havent enough outs to call if u are pretty sure u are behind, only 3 against AK for example, none against KQ) u have to call river when its a blank. U have to think of it as a 2BB investment unless something strange happens at river.

joker122

11-23-2004, 09:35 PM

i would fold in hand 1. change the Qc to the Qh and I'd probably call down. But with this turn card a raise usually means you're beat.

def. call down in hand 2. top pair decent kicker has enough showdown value here. i don't like calling the turn and folding the river unimproved because on this board 2 pair is unlikely.

helpmeout

11-23-2004, 11:11 PM

Hand1 is an easy fold, those types of situations really bug me and I also have a problem folding here.

Hand2 is much different you have TPGK, he could easily be waiting for the turn to raise a pair of kings or have hit 2 pair where you can still improve to the winner.

SH is a tough game a few too many calldowns or bad folds and you go from winner to loser.

naphand

11-24-2004, 06:57 AM

If you want to stop being results oriented, stop posting the results along with the action, or you may just get results-oriented replies.

If you want to know if these are good folds/calldowns save the results for after you get feedback.

Guido

11-24-2004, 11:36 AM

Hi Alobar,

A lot of good posters already said how they would play these hands and I agree with them. I will give some points about when to call down and when not to call down in general.

1) Are you up against 1 or more opponents? When I'm up against more opponents I'm more likely to fold.
2) Is there a call before there is a raise? When there is a bet and a call, it's less likely that my opponent is bluffing.
3) Is it likely that I'm outkicked? When my kicker is lower than an 8 I will give up easier.
4) Are there obvious draws or not? When there are draws I'm more likely to see the river and then decide whether to call or fold.
5) Does you opponent like to bluff raise? When he does, I call down more.
6) Are there overcards?

So for hand 1:
1) You are up against 2 opponents.
2) There is a bet, a call and then a raise.
3) Not applicable
4) Only a flush draw but it was there already on the flop. A straight draw isn't very likely after your raise.
5) You had no read.
6) Yes and it did fall on the turn.

Because your are up against 2 opponents, there is a bet and a call before the raise, there isn't a draw that came on the turn and there came an overcard on the turn, I don't think your opponent is on a bluff and therefore I would fold.

Hand 2:
1) You are up against 2 opponents.
2) There was no call before the raise.
3) Your T is a decent kicker.
4) There are two flush draws and some straight draws.
5) You had no read.
6) No

You are up against 2 opponents, there is no call after your bet, you have a decent kicker and are probably only behind to KJ when he doesn't have two pair (AK and KQ would probably raise preflop), there are a lot of draws and there are no overcards. These things make it a call on the turn. Since a blank fell on the river I would probably call the river too.

I might have forgotten some points but I hope this helps,

Guido

djoyce003

11-24-2004, 12:31 PM

I'll jump on the bandwagon and say hand 1 is a much easier fold, hand 2 you have to call with, or possibly even re-raise (am I the only one that re-raises here?)

hand 1) There is an overcard to your pair, that someone raised into two people and a pre-flop better. He figures you for one of the flop cards, and he is representing a queen, i'd probably lay this down.

Hand 2) you have top pair, decent kicker, your kicker is probably good because nobody raised pre-flop. There are multiple draws on the board. He could be raising a diamond flush, or club flush draw on the turn. I'd probably re-raise here and see his reaction, with top pair crap kicker, unless he's a maniac he'd call, but he isn't going anywhere. Worst case he could check to you on the river and you could check down for a free showdown, or value bet it, assuming no flush card, i'd value bet it.