Pre-flop question

[spamuell]

In pretty much any game that I play (party 2/4, 3/6) except when they are particularly tight, if I'm UTG with KJs, I raise. If I have QJs, I limp. If I have KTs, I fold.

That doesn't make sense, does it?

[MoreWineII]

I tend to limp with KTs. Too loose?

[AdamL]

I don't know if it's right, but I limp with all three in that position. Raising with KJs is likely to fold hands you'd want calling anyhow, except for the suited aces (or Axo if your opponents really suck.) Thoughts?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with KJs is likely to fold hands you'd want calling anyhow, except for the suited aces (or Axo if your opponents really suck.) Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think usually your opponents are either going to call with too many hands or fold too many hands (usually the former). In general, I think it's pretty unlikely that they're going to call with the exact hands that you want them to fold and fold the exact hands you want them to call.

It's difficult to know the exact hands you want them to fold - wrt domination it's easy, but other than that you have to consider implied and reverse implied odds etc and it's harder to estimate something like that. I thought the general consensus was raise, though.

[Fat Nicky]

i limp with KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs. I have seen some instances where people raise with KJs.

[AviD]

Hey spam, depends on the texture I think. I really don't want to play QJs or KTs or even KJs if I have a LAG to act right after me (or one or two other limpers after me) and he's going to likely raise the rest of the field out. These are easily dominated hands that will cost you alot if you hit any piece of the flop.

Granted they will make their fair share of money, but with the dominated suited connectors, you are often looking for either HU or very multiway action. Being out of position and maybe getting trapped into 3-4 way action can get troublesome IMO.

The only thing that bothered me in your post is that you said you play these essentially all the time, except in the tightest of games. I think that may be a bit of a mistake as there are other conditions in a game, some of which I mentioned above, that can make these hands -EV.

[MoreWineII]

Same, but I usually raise KJs. Of course, table texture is a factor.

[Kluddeludde]

I thought the general consensus was raise, though.

I raise KJs first in regardless of position, unless the table is very tough (but I try to avoid those /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

If I'm at a table where I limp with QJs UTG, I limp with KTs as well. Less chance to flop a straight, but slightly more high card strength.

Kludde

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm at a table where I limp with QJs UTG, I limp with KTs as well. Less chance to flop a straight, but slightly more high card strength.

Kludde

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more worried about domination.

[Festus22]

My default is limping all 3 from EP.

Starting in MP1, I raise KJs. Maybe around MP3, I raise QJs and CO or button for raising KTs. Of course these aren't set in stone and may be altered for the number of limpers or the lack thereof.

[J.R.]

I'm more worried about domination.

huh? I think its a bit weak tight to fear domination when no one has done anything yet, especially in a loose game.

Plus, the hands that dominate KT that might limp behind (KJ, KQ) also dominate QJ, plus AJ often limps, so QJ is subject to a greater possibility of domination from other limping hands. If there is a raise both are likely dominated (by pairs, and AK v KT and AQ v QJm, and both by KQ or KQs).

And on the plus side, more people limp with crappy Kings (espeically suited kings) and tens than they do with crappy queens or jacks (although Q9, J9 and Q8s and J8s are common limping hands that are dominated by QJ but not by KT), so KT is more liekly to be in a dominating positon than QJ. And KT has more high card strength than QJ. But the most important point is that while one may be marginally better than the other, they are both porfitable limps up front in the majority of 2-4 and 3-6 games.

[Kluddeludde]

I would be more worried about domination if the table is tough and then I wouldn't limp with those hands. If they are limpable (a word?) it usually means the table is loose and passive and people will most likely limp in with hands that you dominate.

Besides, QJs is also quite prone to domination.

Kludde

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
In pretty much any game that I play (party 2/4, 3/6) except when they are particularly tight, if I'm UTG with KJs, I raise. If I have QJs, I limp. If I have KTs, I fold.

That doesn't make sense, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise with all of them at 3/6 because you're never dominated if your hand is SUITED.

[cjromero]

I limp with all three in EP. In MP, I will raise KJs and QJs. I will raise first in with KTs in MP3 or the CO.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
they are both porfitable limps up front in the majority of 2-4 and 3-6 games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't help but notice this...what about 4/8, 5/10? Do your limping standards change noticeably?

[J.R.]

I am less inclined to do it in a party 5-10 game, but still will if the game is OK. But the bigger picture is that too much emphasis is put on the preflop aspects of these limps. The real deal is what you do with them postflop. If you play poorly, don't limp here. But if you play well postflop, you can open up your play. I also limp-re-raise big hands a lot (not these hands), especially in 5-10 where iso-happy freaks are more prevalent.

[Alobar]

Im 50/50 raise/limp KJs, depends on the table.

I limp QJs and KTs as well, assuming it isnt a super aggro table where there wont be any other limps and I get isolation raised

[StellarWind]

I limp UTG with A9s, A8s, KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs, and JTs.

When I played Paradise 2/4 on a regular basis I often folded KTs, QTs, and A8s because the game is considerably more tight/aggressive. I'll still do that in any game I judge to be especially trigger-happy.

If I feel I need to fold KJs or QJs UTG, it's definitely my last hand.

When the game is short 2-3 players (actual or due to folds) I tighten up a little. I stop playing A8s, KTs, and QTs most of the time and start raising some of the better hands in this group. By the time we reach six players left I don't limp anymore (maybe JTs).

It sounds like you worry too much about domination when thinking about this subject. In my eyes UTG limps are about hands that are not good enough to value-raise out-of-position yet can still make a little money playing against my loose/passive opponents. The key to implied-odds hands is to play them cheaply so you get good odds. Limping UTG is only profitable because your passive opponents tolerate it.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
When the game is short 2-3 players (actual or due to folds) I tighten up a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Shouldn't you be playing more hands if the game is short, usually for a raise? I see why you wouldn't want to limp those hands anymore, but do you not think A8s is profitable when played for a raise UTG 7-handed? I think that it is, but I can only really say that I think that, it's very hard to prove this pre-flop stuff in the same way you can argue post-flop stuff.

[billyjex]

Do you limp, raise or fold with AJs, ATs, A9s from UTG?

As I was reading this thread I folded ATs UTG in party 2/4..

The hand just scares me.

[ErrantNight]

KJs is right on that line between limping and raising... but all three of these are pretty clearly limping hands

KTs is obviously worse than KJs, but it's not a huge difference... by default I'm limping with all three of these... if I'm liable to get more cold callers I like raising with KJs...

the only big suggestion I would have is limp with all of these... raising is going to be marginal and very table dependent, but aside from KTs you can make arguments for raising either of those on the right table.

[ErrantNight]

raise AJs... sometimes ATs... but DEFINITELY at least limp with ATs and A9s (in fact... on most party tables, just as it's correct to play any pocket pair from early position, it's usually correct to play any suited ace... as the table gets tighter/better, your Axs hands become worse and worse to play in early position)

[ErrantNight]

said much better than I would have!

I agree with your sentiments.

[MoreWineII]

I raise AJs almost always and limp with the other two. May raise ATs depending on the table.

[ErrantNight]

word :-) shoulda mentioned that was a reply to the other guy... i'm used to reading threaded posts...