Goofy 6-12 HE hand at Canterbury

[Hamlet]

There are about 5 limpers and I check in the BB with 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

The flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I lead out, and a fairly loose aggressive player raises, a very weak player cold-calls, a book player who normally plays lower cold-calls, I three-bet, LAP 4-bets, weak player folds, book player cold-calls another two, I call.

Turn is the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check, LAP bets, BP calls, I call.
River is the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check LAP bets, BP folds, I call and win the pot, beating the A /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. BP is a little upset and says he folded the K /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I rake a monster pot while the table shakes their heads at my terrible play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[slogger]

I don't like your flop 3-bet. You're out of position with bottom pair and a tiny flush draw. After the raise and coldcall, you must believe that you're either behind, or up against a bigger flush draw (which will never fold before the river), or both.

Call the raise and check-call the turn unimproved.

Also, in the future, do not include the results of your hand in the post. It taints people's analysis and prevents you from getting much good advice.

For other posting tips, check out bisonbison's Small Stakes Forum guide. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1293285&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1#Post1293496)

Welcome to the forums! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Hamlet]

Yup, the flop 3-bet is a questionable play. It sure helps me later in the hand though. Reasons to 3-bet:

Say I'm up against A9 and K9. If I've got the only flush draw against two 1-pair hands, I'm making money by raising. I've got the flush draw and my two-pair outs. From just the one raise by a LAP, I can't rule this situation out.

My re-raise helps define hands. Even the LAP is unlikely to 4-bet with a one pair hand. I can now narrow his hand down to 2-pair or better, or a big draw. The BP is probably going to fold any 1-pair hand to this action, and he probably would have 3-bet a better made hand on the flop. He is almost certainly drawing at this point. My 3-bet has probably given me the info I need not to lead on the river if a flush card comes.

All the flop action keeps the BP from calling with his pair of eights on the river. If I hadn't 3-bet the flop, he might have called the LAP.

Reasons not to 3-bet:

I could be drawing almost dead to a good made hand and a flush draw. That's why they call it gambling /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[StellarWind]

I like it. Flush draw + pair + weak backdoor straight draw gives you a lot of pot equity. You make money by pushing a flop like this. Any folds that happen are good for you because every feature of your hand would benefit from protection. Even the flush draw is strengthened by preemptively removing singleton clubs.

If two opponents get in a firefight on the flop then I think about flush-over-flush. I refuse to worry when it's just one LAG aggressor and two callers. Especially when an opposing flush draw may mean I have the best hand.

Too bad BP didn't get to the chapter on not folding the river for one bet in a big pot with a decent pair. You were right to call. Just be certain you don't overcall BP.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
My re-raise helps define hands

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, "raising for information" is not a great play. You often don't get any reliable information, you often don't get any surprising information, and it often doesn't change your actions.

In this hand, you spent 2SB on the flop, concluded that you're behind and may be drawing dead or nearly so, and then decided to call all the way anyway. So how did raising really help you?

[Hamlet]

To be fair to the BP, he's in a much tougher spot to call than me. He has to beat two hands that put four bets in on the flop. He has to call not knowing what I am going to do. He has to put us both on flush draws to call.

I certainly can't over-call. But so many people push flush draws hard on the flop while waiting to the turn to raise their two-pair/set flops that calling with bottom pair at the end was a no-brainer for me when it is just me and the LAP.

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad BP didn't get to the chapter on not folding the river for one bet in a big pot with a decent pair. You were right to call. Just be certain you don't overcall BP.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

The call on the river was fine. The three-bet on the flop was awful. That it turned out well for you in the end is not important. You say you raised for information, and the information you got is that you were way behind and likely drawing dead. So you used that information to stay in the hand and call two more BB. You would probably call it down anyway,(the correct action), so how does this help? BP's mistake on the river saved you from yourself.

Welcome to the forums. Good post.

[Chizoad]

When you bet, the LAG raises, and gets two cold callers, one of which is supposedly solid, doesn't that scream there's a higher flush draw out there? When I read your post that's the first thing I thought, and was surprised when you 3-bet it on the flop.

Other than that I think you played the hand fine, especially calling on the end. I'm amazed the "book player" dumped it on the end there. Truly terrible play. At least you didn't make the same catastropic error.

Chiz

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
The call on the river was fine. The three-bet on the flop was awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
I generally get as much into the pot as I can on the flop with a 4-flush and at least 2 guaranteeed callers; I tend not to worry about flush over flush - bad?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call on the river was fine. The three-bet on the flop was awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
I generally get as much into the pot as I can on the flop with a 4-flush and at least 2 guaranteeed callers; I tend not to worry about flush over flush - bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this hand the cold callers (especially the book guy) suggest he does not have the best flush draw, and with his crappy pair he is almost drawing dead (unless someone makes a truly awful play and folds on the river with middle pair for one bet).

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally get as much into the pot as I can on the flop with a 4-flush and at least 2 guaranteeed callers; I tend not to worry about flush over flush - bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
Beware of overgeneralizations, but you definitely have the right idea.

On this flop the 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is a much better card to have than A /images/graemlins/club.gif. Some people don't seem to get that. This is a really great hand even if fraught with uncertainty.

This thread is the poster child for not posting the results. I'm sorry about being third best flush draw, that's very unusual. What's not unusual is the flush didn't come with so many clubs tied up in other hands. That's one reason it's usually OK to not worry about flush-over-flush until you get solid evidence.

[Hamlet]

You're ignoring the first reason I gave for raising. They could both be on 1-pair hands, in which case I'm a money favorite. Plus, if no one has two-pair, I want to thin the field to make sure my 2-pair outs stay clean.

That said, the information I got was not totally useless, because it would have kept me from leading on the river if a club had come. Instead of losing two bets on the river I would have lost one or none (since bet-raise is a possible line of action from my opponents on the river, and I'm not going to call two cold).


[ QUOTE ]
You say you raised for information, and the information you got is that you were way behind and likely drawing dead. So you used that information to stay in the hand and call two more BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bakku]

How can you not 3-bet this flop after a raise and two cold calls?

[Hamlet]

I don't think the BP play was all that bad. It's pretty rare for there to be 3 flush draws out. He's in the wrong position to make the call. He has to beat two hands that put 4-bets in on the flop. I would bet that 95% of the time, one of us is going to have his hand beat.


[ QUOTE ]
Other than that I think you played the hand fine, especially calling on the end. I'm amazed the "book player" dumped it on the end there. Truly terrible play. At least you didn't make the same catastropic error.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Chizoad]

The book player is getting 15:1 ish to call here, so even if it's 95% then calling is fairly close. No way can he narrow it down to as close at 95% though. At worst calling is a very slightly negative EV play, so maybe not a terrible decision as I said earlier. Of course, if he tilts because he didn't make this call then it is a really bad fold.

I would say however that in an online game this call would be more automatic than in a live game.

Chiz

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the BP play was all that bad. It's pretty rare for there to be 3 flush draws out. He's in the wrong position to make the call. He has to beat two hands that put 4-bets in on the flop. I would bet that 95% of the time, one of us is going to have his hand beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not good at 15-1. He has a much better pair than you do. His eights are second pair versus the flop. This flop is so draw-laden that it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of heat without any real hands. In addition to flush draws, there are double-gutshots and gutshot+pair draws. Both of the combatants are very aggressive players which increases the credibility of some mixture of low pairs and draws being involved.

Raising the river as a bluff to force your possible nine out is an interesting alternative. He represents a completed straight. I doubt this is actually a good idea but it is interesting to think about. It would be worth it if there was a chance the bettor would fold a nine.

BTW, his first coldcall on the flop is awful. With 15 potential outs he should be 3-betting for value, to protect his weak king and 1-card straight draw, and maybe pick up a free card on the turn.