Aggression -- too much of a good thing? [Archive]

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hockey1

11-23-2004, 10:49 AM

I've become much more aggressive with marginal hands lately, with excellent results. Well, it's either the aggression or the fact that the deck's been hitting me in the face. Let me know whether you think I overdid it in any of these particularly marginal three hands from last night:

Hand 1:

I think this is pretty standard, but am I asking for trouble with the river raise? Given the size of the pot I figured there might well be worse hands that would call even given the scary board.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (9.83 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (12.83 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.83 BB
Main Pot: 18.83 BB, between UTG+1, Hero and Button.

Hand 2:

Clearly a raise or fold situation on the flop here, right? Anybody think folding was the better option? I was worried about a flop check/3-bet, but if that happened I could get away from the hand pretty easily on the turn if I didn't improve. Anybody just check the river?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, won by Hero.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.

Hand 3:

UTG+1 is very LAGgy, so I didn't respect his EP raise all that much. MP3 is a calling station. Maybe I should've 3-bet preflop? After that it was a combination of hope and pot size, right?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (9.83 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 10.83 BB
Main Pot: 9.83 BB, won by Hero.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.

skp

11-23-2004, 02:43 PM

Hand 1 is SOP.

Hand 2: 76 off is a little weak even on the button Flop raise is good though. The turn bet is debatable unless you are 100% prepared to let go off your hand if checkraised. You have got it headsup with a marginal hand. You don't wnat to give a free card but on the other hand, you might be the one needing one (although that 9 takes away 3 of your outs if the other guy has a Queen).

The mitigating factor of checking is that your check is unlikely to cost you the pot and it may save you bets. I would check the turn in this heads-up spot. But the problem with that play is that I am probably going to have to call a river bet (but I might fold if he bets on a river 8, T, J, or King).

Hand 3:

That is too much aggression although it worked for you here. It's a slipperly slope though.....don't get carried away with splashing chips around or it's going to start biting you in the ass.

James282

11-23-2004, 02:47 PM

Folding at any point in hand one would be lunacy.

Playing that [censored] from the button is going to lose you a lot of money in hand 2.

Hand 3, well while you're at the river you might as well bet it I guess.
-James

AviD

11-23-2004, 03:04 PM

Well I don't know the 15/30 game, so take this with a grain of salt...

Hand 1 looks standard

Hand 2 is clear fold preflop, not much value entering...position isn't gaining you that much.

Hand 3 is clearly overplaying, chip spewing if you will. I wouldn't play KTs for a raise here, but that's just my weak-tight ass! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

hockey1

11-23-2004, 03:57 PM

Thanks for the responses so far. I don't really disagree with anything anyone's said. FWIW, on Hand 2, with 4 callers to me already I figured it was worth a shot even with connected crap since I was on the button. High upside, low downside (generally), but I'm sure a fold would'nt have been wrong.

On hand 3, the table read is important. We've got one LAG and one calling station. The LAG could've raised preflop with much worse than KTs. On the flop if I'm going to play I've gotta raise to clean up my outs. Then the flush card comes on the turn and I decide to bet, hoping that they put me on either a flush (raising the flop for a free card, which I basically was) or on some other strong hand. They both called. Not what I wanted and I was pretty much ready to give up the hand at that point. Then the 4 flush hits on the river. My thought process was that if either had a strong club they might well have bet or check raised it on the turn, espcially LAGgy. If either has a weak club they might fold if I bet. And on top of that there's better than a one in four chance that neither has a club, in which case they almost certainly fold no matter what else they might have (nothing strong based on previous streets). Given the size of the pot I figured it was worth a stab -- even considering only the last point -- with an easy fold to a raise.

AviD

11-23-2004, 04:22 PM

Hey hockey1, few things that I picked up on...

1) I don't think 67o can be played very profitably in limit HE. In NL, different beast but even then can be marginal for the times you are going to run into bigger hands (i.e. flop trips and get busted up by a kicker). The only way you can make it profitable in limit is if hands tend to be super multiway and passive preflop but explosive and severely overplayed postflop. i.e. you can get in cheap and get paid big time when you hit something hard (High upside, Low downside only if this condition is met). This is often not the case, certainly not enough to make playing 67o even with position and multiway action into a +EV play.

I think I read an analysis on playing offsuit connectors...and the only mathematically "profitable" spot was with a table full of limpers in the SB or a table full of callers of a single raise in the BB. Something along those lines. Was awhile ago, so what I've just stated could be VERY erroneous...the one thing I learned and applied from it was to not play hands like 67o! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

2) "If either has a weak club they might fold if I bet." With a LAG, I don't see this ever happening. In fact if he has any piece, I think he's hanging for one more bet. When you get that involved in the pot, and reach the river...your only choice is to bet and hope they do fold out. But that isn't the problem, the problem is that you were involved on the flop, and the turn, and the river. But as you said, once you are there...given the pot size, you can't slow down...but you created the pot and more times than not...its going into someone else's stack, not yours.

Just some more food for thought.

James282

11-23-2004, 04:29 PM

Don't get caught up on the idea that people won't call you down with less than a club - mostly for times when you can value bet non-flush hands(usually once the pot is being contested heads up).
-James