Flush draw, first to act or no bets yet - how much to bet?

[The Bloke]

Hi guys,

I have a fairly basic question..

When I have flopped a flush draw, and no-one has bet before me (either I'm first in, or everyone has checked so far), I'm never quite sure how much to bet.

If someone has bet before me, I use pot odds + implied pot odds to decide if it's worth betting my draw. And if someone showed strength PF, or if there are some high cards on the board, I'll usually check, and see if they bet back to me - then use odds to decide.

But if the flop is rags, and/or everyone limped PF, what's a good bet? Normally I'll put in a bet that gives me good odds - e.g. if the blinds are 15/30, and the pot is 200, I'd bet 30, giving me good odds on that bet. If the pot were 300 I might bet 60.

(I know that position, reads, stack size etc will all have an effect - but I was wondering if there was a general rule)

Any help much appreciated


Tom

[ChrisV]

Usually you should check. Draws are death in NL/PL. You really just want to draw into your hand and then make them pay.

If the pot is large relative to your stack size, you can try and win it right there, either by betting allin or check raising strongly. Often you can check and decide whether to fold or raise based on how strong people bet.

The bets of 30 and 60 you describe are called "weak leads" and are a bad idea. If someone has a strong hand, e.g. top pair, making a weak lead will not dissaude them from raising the bet to a reasonable amount. All it does is to notify them that you have some kind of hand you weren't keen to pay lots of money for - so they'll make you pay lots of money for it. Making a weak lead is basically the same as checking except that you have to shell out money and you're letting the opponents know what you've got.

[tigerite]

Unless you have a very strong draw, then check. Obviously if you have suited connectors and have the OESD as well as the flush, then you can bet it, but even then a check-raise may be a better option. Or if you have AQs and the board is all low with two to your suit. Unless you are completing from the SB at level 1 or in the BB I can't see how you could have any other flush draw, if you're playing tight as you should.

[nuclear500]

Unless you got to check into your flush draw, bet it. The amount would depend on how you feel about your overall chances whether you hit or not.

Bet the flop, if you're called and its checked to you on the turn, check again - unless you've picked up some other kind of hand/backdoor draw, then bet again. More than likely they won't suspect you for a flush draw if you bet the turn after being called.

The tactic has worked for me a couple times where I've been first to act - I've bet on the flop, turn and made my flush on the river and check raised them - since they are going to think the flush card was a scare card to me since I was betting strong the wohle way and when the flush came, I checked.

Anyhow, just my $.02

[tigerite]

This is different, in late position on the flop then a bet is quite often a good idea. However I would strongly disagree with doing this bet again on the turn. You take the free card, otherwise you risk being re-raised and seeing the river for free. So instead of possibly improving to the best hand, you now have to fold.

[captZEEbo1]

you have to decide what your bet is doing. You either want everyone else to fold or juice the pot. Juicing the pot in NL isn't really feasible for a draw. Your only real goal is to get folds.

You generally have to play it by ear. If the board seems like nobody probably hit any pairs, you can bet it. Ie, you limped, only sb, and bb, and an A flopped, there's a decent chance sb and bb don't have an A, or if they do, they have kicker problems, so you can bet the 1/2 the pot to the pot (depending on how big the pot is...) if the blinds are 100/200, 1/2 the pot is usually enough, but if blinds are 15/30, you're gonna need a pot bet to get mid pair to fold. If you don't win it right there, your game plan is to chk the turn and river w/o improvement. If you are in bb, and you have a flush draw, the flop came 9 hi, and there is only one limper, if sb chks, you can bet the pot, as it's unlikely the limper has hit any pair. If there are many people in the pot, there is no point to bluff your flush draw, as someone has likely hit something (even if you are last to act).