Anyone play this differently?

[AdamL]

LP-P fest.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>....putting Button all-in for his last chip...

[k000k]

Bet the flop, give others the chance to fold.. You can't give any flush draw a free card. (or an 8!) And you'd like to know if your J is good.. Bet the flop and fold to a raise. If the bt has some weak ace, he is feeling VERY confident that his hand is good..

The 3bet on the turn with 2nd pair and a paired board, it's bad, but not QUITE as bad as it could be because he's so shortstacked.. When he raises you, that could be a desparate last attempt, but it sets off alarms in my head.. You aren't that strong, and you aren't gonna make him fold if he only has one bet left in his stack.. I'd bet you're beat..

[A_C_Slater]

I would bet the flop. While you normally wouldn't re raise in this situation the fact that he's shortstacked makes it a fine move in my opinion as you're going to have to call a river bet anyway. And people usally throw their last chips into the pot out of frustration with nothing, hoping their opponent will fold.

[AdamL]

Against opponents who play just about any ace, it's still right to bet middle pair into an ace high flop and 3 opponents?

I wouldn't even bet this flop at 3/6 unless I had raised preflop.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Against opponents who play just about any ace, it's still right to bet middle pair into an ace high flop and 3 opponents?

I wouldn't even bet this flop at 3/6 unless I had raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is alright. There is no law against it. You must give them an opportunity to fold. You have outs. Even if they do have an ace your hand could improve and you can win. Three opponents is not very many. You must not give hands like 98 a chance to outdraw you. No free cards. Ever. It's not just middle pair it's middle pair with strong kicker. If the kicker was weak it would be different. People could be calling with JT, JQ, J9, etc. It is very possible you are ahead against only 3 hands. Yes they could outdraw you, but that is irrelevant, winning poker is about getting your bets in with the best of it.

Let me ask you this: You would call a bet on this flop?

[AdamL]

I don't think I'd even call a bet on this flop, but that doesn't mean I'm right /images/graemlins/wink.gif (edit: I would if the pot were bigger)

Give them a chance to fold? LP-P's?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'd even call a bet on this flop, but that doesn't mean I'm right /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Give them a chance to fold? LP-P's?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they would fold I just said you have to give them a chance . If you don't bet while having the probability of having the best hand then you become passive yourself.

[AdamL]

Ok. I think your argument has merit. Let's define some boundaries for it though, since any line needs specific circumstances be correct.

If there were 4 opponents instead of 3, would you still bet? I think 5 is probably way too many to have in, and I'd also lean towards 4 being too many. Betting looks easier with 2 opponents.

Of course, this is assuming LP-P .5/1 Party type opponents.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. I think your argument has merit. Let's define some boundaries for it though, since any line needs specific circumstances be correct.

If there were 4 opponents instead of 3, would you still bet? I think 5 is probably way too many to have in, and I'd also lean towards 4 being too many. Betting looks easier with 2 opponents.

Of course, this is assuming LP-P .5/1 Party type opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there are many situational differences. In the original example you have one check to you and only two left behind you. If the checker had a ace he would probably bet (unless very weak) So you most likely have him beat and only two people left. I would not bet into 4 or more opponents however unless I had position and it was checked to me. With 5 or more I would just take a look at the turn if checked to me with position. If a blank falls and it's checked to me again I would bet everytime.

[bergh]

This looks backwards to me. Are you trying to slowplay mid-pair?

I would bet the flop, and if I missed it I wouldn't 3-bet the turn.

[AdamL]

Flop gets checked through, I think my hand is the best hand. A guy with 1BB left raises me. He could easily have a worse jack, so I 3-bet with absolutely no chance of having to put in any additional bets.

[bergh]

Ok, you might be right about the turn - it's not that bad when he is shortstacked.

I think not betting the flop could be a huge leak if you do it regularly though. These situations occur way to often to be misplayed. Let's see why.

Your chances of not being up against an ace against random hands are:

88% (1 opponent)
76% (2 opponents)
66% (3 opponents)
56% (4 opponents)
48% (5 opponents)
40% (6 opponents)
34% (7 opponents)

Of course, your opponents will not play random hands, so the relevant figures will be lower, but they will still be way to high for a check (remember, you don't need 50% if you are not heads up). When you are ahead, your edge is huge and when you are behind to an ace, your drawing chances are ok. Even if you are raised you will be ok, since a lot of calling stations will provide dead money.

[Yads]

Good post I forgot that the numbers were so high for 3 random hands. Anyway I find myself in this situation a lot when playing against loose passives. I'll bet the flop with middle pair and they'll call down all the way with the ace. So let's say he bets the flop and gets one or two callers do you still bet out on the turn, the river?

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you this: You would call a bet on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell NO! If I get bet into and I decide I'm staying in this one, I'm raising. Calling is just dumb.. I'd either fold, or raise and fold to a 3bet.

[meep_42]

Bet the flop, call a raise (you'll be getting 7:1 on 5 outs to improve past Aces).
Check-fold the turn unimproved if there is a raise on the flop, bet the turn if no resistence.

If the turn is bet out and raised, put the opponent all-in and see what's what.

-d

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, you might be right about the turn - it's not that bad when he is shortstacked.

I think not betting the flop could be a huge leak if you do it regularly though. These situations occur way to often to be misplayed. Let's see why.

Your chances of not being up against an ace against random hands are:

88% (1 opponent)
76% (2 opponents)
66% (3 opponents)
56% (4 opponents)
48% (5 opponents)
40% (6 opponents)
34% (7 opponents)

Of course, your opponents will not play random hands, so the relevant figures will be lower, but they will still be way to high for a check (remember, you don't need 50% if you are not heads up). When you are ahead, your edge is huge and when you are behind to an ace, your drawing chances are ok. Even if you are raised you will be ok, since a lot of calling stations will provide dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good stuff, thanks. I hadn't come across data like this before.
Just by the data, does this mean I should be leading out on the betting on just about an K-7-2'ish rainbow flop with anywhere up to 4 opponents no matter what I have? (unless it was raised preflop.)

Similarly, should I be betting a lot of 2nd pairs into 3 opponents or less on even a flush-draw board with high cards like this one?

Or is that way too lag on the flop? (I'm just going off the data)

Incidently, does anyone not like my preflop check? I thought about raising but decided I'd check-raise the flop if I hit top pair and make some of it back. Nevertheless, with just 3 opponents in late position limping in I probably have good equity. My position just sucks. I know HEFAP says KJ is a limping hand behind other limpers, and an open-raise hand from late position.