Top Pair Medium Kicker -- When To Stop Betting?

[gaming_mouse]

Pacific Poker 3/6.

LP is a calling station par excellence. No reads on BB.

Hero UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero limps, folded to LP, who raises. BB calls. 3 players to the flop:

A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets, 2 calls.

Turn blanks. Repeat above. River blanks. Repeat above.

Is this bad? Other possible lines?

Thanks,
gm

[Fat Nicky]

I'll assume the game was loose passive since you limped in with A9s.

Keep betting til you're told to stop, in other words, til you get raised.

[gaming_mouse]

That's what everyone seems to say, but I don't think I buy it in cases like this. With more than one caller, I feel I'm behind more often than I'm ahead.

Maybe my psychological aversion to losses in situations like this skews my memory, but I honestly don't think so.

Other thoughts?

gm

[MoreWineII]

OK, so say you're behind (unlikely imo, someone would raise), aren't you planning on check-calling anyway?

[sthief09]

given that LP is so loose and passive, I like your line. he's not folding an underpair. against a normal player, this is a perfect spot for a check-call, check-call, bet

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll assume the game was loose passive since you limped in with A9s.

[/ QUOTE ]


no he limped with A9s because it's a good hand

[ode]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so say you're behind (unlikely imo, someone would raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

Or would they...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9.25 BB, between Hero and MP2.</font>

Results in not white below: <font color="black">
Hero has Qs Ac (two pair, aces and fours).
MP2 has As Kh (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: MP2 wins 9.25 BB. </font>


But yes, bet the river...


/ode

[Fat Nicky]

I don't normally limp with A9s from EP unless the game is loose and passive. My cutoff is ATs in normal games. Maybe I'm too tight pre-flop EP.

[mtdoak]

My guess is that they are in with Ace rag or some sort of draw or some lower pocket pair. I think your fine, you are probably going to get paid off.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so say you're behind (unlikely imo, someone would raise

[/ QUOTE ]

First, this game is very passive, so it is not at all true that I can expect a raise if I'm out-kicked. Pacific is rife with players who are afraid to raise anything but very strong hands.

[ QUOTE ]
aren't you planning on check-calling anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this is a good point, and was really the reason I posted. I don't like my line at all, but you are quite right: check-calling is not a good alternative.

The thing I want to do is check-fold the turn, but I know that's wrong.

I hate this situation because my instincts are so often right. In this case, I was shown an AJ on the river.

gm

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
against a normal player, this is a perfect spot for a check-call, check-call, bet

[/ QUOTE ]

stheif,

can you explain this? why does this line apply only to a normal player? why do you bet on the end? because you're confident you are ahead?

thanks,
gm

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a normal player, this is a perfect spot for a check-call, check-call, bet

[/ QUOTE ]

stheif,

can you explain this? why does this line apply only to a normal player? why do you bet on the end? because you're confident you are ahead?

thanks,
gm

[/ QUOTE ]

not necessarily because you're ahead, but because KK or QQ or whatever will check behind and even if you are behind AK or AQ or whatever, you're unlikely to get raised because of the bizarre river bet. and you should generally listen to everything sthief09 says because he gives good advice.

hugs,
chris

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
and you should generally listen to everything sthief09 says because he gives good advice.


[/ QUOTE ]

oh i'm listening. just trying to understand also.

gm

[BottlesOf]

This is a standard line for when you limp and are raised or raise and are re-raised preflop, and then hit top pair, that isn't vulnearble, with a kicker you're not sure of.

Usually, you have an ace and an ace hits. You check/call, check/call, bet b/c you win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind. It's usually done heads up, and obviously, you are out of position.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
It's usually done heads up,

[/ QUOTE ]

multiway exception is on threatening drawless boards boards.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BottlesOf]

Boards boards?

[pfkaok]

I like the check/call, check/call, bet line also against most, b/c its pretty much a lose less when you're behind and/or win more when you're ahead thing.

Basically you're either way ahead or way behind, so if you're ahead on the flop you'll likely win, and when you're behind you'll likely lose. If he has an A, he's likely to raise you on either the flop or turn when you come out betting. And when he has KK or QQ he's likely to fold on turn if you come out betting, but if you check on flop and turn, he'll likely bet on both rounds. Then on the river if you bet into him he'll almost certainly call, unless he's got something like a set. he won't fold his KK or QQ for one more bet usually, and your peculiar bet on the river will probalby make him think that you hit your kicker, so he'll likely just call with AK or AQ... I think its more clearly the right choice if HU, but with only 1 other person it probably still aplies.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Hi Johnny Boom Boom:

That was a type-o and you know that.

Best wishes,
CDC

[BottlesOf]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, could you give an example of a multiway hand where this line is optimal, I rarely do that, and would like to see where you like it.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

ok here's one.

you have A7s and limp utg. 2 limpers. rock button raises. blinds fold. 4 players for ~9.5 small bets.

flop: A 6 6 rainbow

or here's another one...

you limp utg with A7s. limper and rock button raises. SB folds. BB calls. 4 players in for 8.5 small bets.

flop: A 3 9 rainbow

or stuff similar to this or with one less player or whatever.

[Monty Cantsin]

I think you're supposed to fold to a raise on the river, BUT I NEVER DO.

/mc

[BottlesOf]

Hmmmn interesting. I would sometimes try it in the second, but never thought to do it on a paired board. Usually, when it's multiway and my kicker is really suspect (like your examples) I figure I'm making more money by betting and collecting from bad calls, or maybe a raise protects my hand (as I type it I see it doesn't make a ton of sense) and I can get a chop somehow...I'm rambling...but I'm also thinking...

[billyjex]

I've noticed this at party 2/4 lately. People playing AK and AQ very passively (no PRF and calling me down) when I've been holding AQ, AJ or AT.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
you limp utg with A7s. limper and rock button raises. SB folds. BB calls. 4 players in for 8.5 small bets.

flop: A 3 9 rainbow


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with a 3 or 9 without a 7 as their kicker has 5 outs against you, check/calling here sucks.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

ok. typically what card combos have a 3 in it? fearing a 3 is generally silly. and also that i made my example in like 2 minutes.

the A 6 6 example was much better though.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
ok. typically what card combos have a 3 in it? fearing a 3 is generally silly. and also that i made my example in like 2 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been away from the lower limits for way too long buddy.

[ QUOTE ]
the A 6 6 example was much better though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I'd play that one the same way.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

ok i admit its a bad example given the pot size. but lets just say instead of the two fishies, make it one fishy for a 3 way pot and a 6.5 small bet pot. giving odds in tiny pots isn't as disasterous as if this pot were bigger.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
ok i admit its a bad example given the pot size. but lets just say instead of the two fishies, make it one fishy for a 3 way pot and a 6.5 small bet pot. giving odds in tiny pots isn't as disasterous as if this pot were bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had given an example like this one I wouldn't have complained.

Your Daddy,
Mike

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
you have A7s and limp utg. 2 limpers. rock button raises. blinds fold. 4 players for ~9.5 small bets.

flop: A 6 6 rainbow

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, rocks don't bet underpairs on this flop. Certainly I don't bet the river after he bets the flop and turn because I have the best hand approximately never. The best way to deal with a rock is to bet the flop and keep betting until someone raises. Then you fold unless the rock folded first.

But your example would be reasonable with a more aggressive button who will play his KK-JJ.

An important variation on this example occurs when you are the third limper instead of the first limper. Now it's very important not to bet. The idea is to allow button to be the one to get himself checkraised by the six while you use your good position to escape the trap.