Cold calling 2 raises KQs preflop

[TripleQ]

6th hand into the Sunday 200+15 tourney. Table has been loose passive, with 3-5 players seeing unraised flops.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t2510)
MP1 (t2560)
MP2 (t2600)
MP3 (t2440)
Hero (t2450)
Button (t2470)
SB (t2480)
BB (t2480)
UTG (t2660)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to t40</font>, UTG+1 calls t40, MP1 calls t40, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises to t60</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls t60, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 calls t20.

No idea what the min raises represent, but I call based on position and the weakness implied by 2 min raises. Somewhat suspicious of the reraise by MP2.

Flop: (t330) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, UTG+1 calls t120, MP1 calls t120, MP2 calls t120, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t360</font>,

Dream flop right? With the way the table has been playing I cannot put anyone on AA/KK/AK. I raise to see where I am/semi-bluff/free card play (if that's possible).

<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to t1200</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t1080,

Now I know I'm behind... probably set or AA from UTG, doubt AK would reraise so strongly. But I'm also confused by MP2.. but pot odds right?

Hero calls t840.


Turn: (t4170) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t1400 (All-In)</font>, MP2 calls t1340 (All-In), Hero calls t1190 (All-In).

Pot odds again, but I hate putting in all my chips on a draw.. however, that "playing for first" bird keeps singing in my mind.

River: (t8100) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t8100
<font color="green">Main Pot: t7740 (t7740), between MP2, Hero and UTG.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t300 (t300), between MP2 and UTG.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 3: t60 (t60), returned to UTG.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG has 5h 6c (full house, fives full of sixes).
MP2 has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and fives).
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: UTG wins t8100. </font>

I was very close to mucking KQs pre-flop, and normally would have at a tighter table, but the way the table was playing I figured I could have easily had the best hand... so do I re-re-raise KQs preflop??

Thanks for reading...

[adanthar]

This is why you fold KQs here and it isn't at all close.

[Lloyd]

I almost always throw away KQ when raised in front of me. There are just too many problems with that hand. Now if someone is being overly aggressive, raising way too much, I might play back. But you have to be very, very careful.

Even though you hit the flop decently, you still have to be careful. Most of the value from your hand comes from the fact that you have a strong flush draw in addition to having a pair. Your only a small dog to someone having AK (assuming the A is not a diamond in which case your about a 3-2 dog. But you really, really want to hit your flush.

On the flop, I think you either need to call or push. Your raise really didn't do anything at all. The pot was T720 and you only raised it to T360. Anybody who got a decent piece of the flop had odds to call. It's safe to say that you are behind here. AK is a possibility, and so is two pair with 65. A raise is probably not going to get AK or 65 to fold so I would have just called the 120 bet. After all, you were getting 6-1 odds. And you were getting 6-1 on the turn as well. With 12 outs I think you absolutley have to make the call.

But the point is, don't hesitate throwing away KQ pre-flop. It's just too dangerous.

[TripleQ]

Normally I do muck KQs to a raise, but I'm getting 4:1 in decent position and this is a hand with busting potential, right?

I found it very difficult to consider folding pre-flop with so many players in.. I suppose that might be a leak. I would have gotten myself into less trouble if I put in a strong raise preflop... would anyone actually advocate doing so though?

[Lloyd]

It sure is a busting hand. But this time, it busted you. I think the problem is that with the pre-flop action, it seemed like someone could potentially have AK. So KQs with two diamonds is going to take all your chips. If you hit the flush, great. If not, busted. Since it looks like you're committed to the pot, why not push on the flop when your probably not too far behind and have 12 outs twice.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I do muck KQs to a raise, but I'm getting 4:1 in decent position and this is a hand with busting potential, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your 4:1 is useless unless you flop exactly one of a)a pair and a draw, preferably TP, b)(top) 2 pair, or c)trips (which may or may not be good here because the action can't make you feel comfortable.)

And then, when you flopped almost perfectly, you got to put your chips in as only a small dog. Fabulous.

I would need something like 10:1 to call here and then I'd wind up cursing myself as I pushed on the flop.

[phixxx]

I don't see how you can call UTG's 1400 chip reraise....it's either push or fold in that situation. Your money is going in regardless if you call that and miss on 4th street, so why not put it all in on the flop and try getting as many hands to lay down as possible that are beating you?

ALSO, minraises by these idiots that play on these sites don't necessarily mean weakness.. I've moved in on players who have minraised me a numerous amount of times only to be shown AA and KK. Minraises don't mean weakness with these players.

And regardless of how these players play, if you can't put someone on AK with a raise and a reraise infront of you then there's something wrong possibly?

[fnurt]

I am going to disagree with some of the posters here because I think it is silly to fold this preflop, even if you need to proceed with extreme caution postflop. You're only putting 2% of your stack in the pot, and the implied odds are way too huge if you make two pair or better.

This flop is great for you - much better than naked top pair - but as a general rule, when you have a pair + flush draw, you want to get HEADS UP. It is not possible for a single player to have both a better made hand and a better flush draw than you, but against two opponents, a hand like yours can be way behind.

If you can get the pot heads up on the flop, you can play a flop like this very aggressively, since you are almost always a coin flip at worst, and with dead money in the pot plus your folding equity, a coinflip is +EV by a lot.

With this in mind, in the actual hand, my initial raise on the flop would have been bigger, to like T500 or 600, with the intent of getting at least one fold.

If one of them folds and the other one raises big, then it's decision time - you are likely in a coinflip situation, but you may or may not want to play for all your chips, depending on the tournament situation, notwithstanding the big overlay.

But when it comes back to you with a big reraise AND a call, I think it is an easy muck. Your hand is great heads up but it can be trash 3-handed. No way do you have the best made hand based on this action, and you have no folding equity, so the concept of not calling off all your chips on a draw should stop you before it's too late.

[Lloyd]

I definitely think pushing on the flop is the best move. Like I said, calling is an option and preferable to making the small raise you did. But pushing should narrow the field and give you a decent chance of winning. But I do think I'm going to call off my last chips in this situation.

[nightlyraver]

You happen to run into the 2-pair on the flop, however you must realize that you are actually AHEAD of the AK - imagine that - due to all of your outs. If it were later in the tourney, I would consider a push in this spot.

[zaxx19]

Early in a tourney almost without exception I fold KQ too any raise. Just hard for me too see how your gonna make alot of money with KQ in a raised pot, while it is easy for me to see how you will lose a ton. And even if i think im getting popped on a postion play and Im in a blind im still folding just too easy to get into big trouble.
Let the flaming begin........

[betgo]

I fold KQo in a raised pot. I call with KQs with multiway action. I would probably call here with 75s or almost any suited connector or gapper. You hope someone has a big pair, so you can take them out with a striaght, flush, or two pair.

[MrTop]

I don't think that I like the raise after the flop. The call by MP2 just screams trouble to me (as well as the other callers). It's too early to determine how the table has been playing as you stated. That raise on the flop (especially that small will only lead you into deeper trouble, which it did).

See the turn card for the T120 and take it from there.

I can't see gambling all of your chips, especially this early in a tourny, even if it has a slightly positive EV. You can wait for a better situation later.

[stabn]

He shouldn't have raised the flop in the first place, he should have simply called UTG's bet. He doesn't have the nut draw, AK is very possible with the min raises. Just call the flop, if your diamonds get there on the turn UTG might push into you hoping to get the lone ace of diamonds to fold. By calling i think you profit better when you hit your diamonds and cost yourself less when you miss. There's no reason to put your chips in this early on a non nut draw with what is likely a second best hand on the flop.

[fnurt]

It is impossible for someone to have the AK of diamonds.

[stabn]

I didn't actually say AK of diamonds. I'm saying possible hands. Someone with AK, ie, someone he's already behind, or someone with Ax of diamonds. In fact sometimes he could be in that pot with the guy who had 56, and a guy who has the nut diamond draw, and be drawing thin as hell. Also, even if someone has AK, and someone else is in there with two diamonds, he's drawing fairly thin because his diamonds won't get there as often. Yes, one player isn't going to have him totally dominated in that spot, but with two in there it's very possible he has a second best hand and fairly possible that he also has a second best draw.

If the preflop action was different, ie, he was the only aggressor, that's one thing. But the raise and the rearise makes kqs a calling hand on the flop, IMO. And one that i'm not looking to put more than 10-15% of my stack in on the flop either.

Let me elaborate a bit. I don't think raising for 'information' is smart on this kind of flop. Based on the flopflop min raises, AA, KK and AK are all possible hands. It's not like this is an unraised pot. It's a pot where he cold called two raises. You have to be especially careful with a hand like KQ when cold calling two raises. It's why most people say it's a fold. I think, this early in the tournament, for a very small portion of your chips, you can take a flop. But you can't take a flop, if you're going to be getting your chips in with top pair and a flush draw. Get your chips in when you already have broadway, or a flush, or two pair.

I think, if you are going to raise the flop like he did though, you're done right here:
[ QUOTE ]

UTG raises to t1200, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t1080,


[/ QUOTE ]
You're behind, and your flush draw might not be getting there 1/3rd of the time for you anymore, you don't even really know if it will be good when you do get there. I flat call in the first place though, and get myself superb odds on my flush draw, and don't put myself in this position.

I think the turn is the worst move though. One card to come, he knows his king is no good, two players are all in in front of him. The blinds are still low enough to build back with 1190 left, just fold and move on.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold KQo in a raised pot. I call with KQs with multiway action. I would probably call here with 75s or almost any suited connector or gapper. You hope someone has a big pair, so you can take them out with a striaght, flush, or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're calling 4:1 odds to hit a SF draw, pair+draw or better (note that with this type of action, if you only hit middle pair, you must fold, and if you hit only one draw you're bleeding chips.)

Compare with calling in this same spot with pocket 2's, which will hit a set about as often (somewhat more often?) as you hit pair+draw or better, and you should realize why this is a horrible call.

I would much rather call 97s than KQs here, though.

[SossMan]

save the headache and muck to the send miniraise.

and I would have pushed that flop.