Commission Coach Hand #1 Review

[O Doyle Rules]

Hi all,

For any of you in the mid/hi stakes group that do not read the general forum, I recently entered into an agreement with someone who agreed to coach me in the online 15/30 for a percentage of my profits. My first 7k hands were a disaster, losing over 200 BBs.

I will be posting a series of these "Commission Coach" hands and will greatly appreciate anyone who takes the time to review them and post their thoughts.

My coach will also be posting his thoughts on these hands as well. I personally selected these hands and my coach has not see them prior to them being posted here.

Hand #1

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has Jc Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP1 has 8c 8s (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: MP1 wins 9.50 BB. </font>

[MarkD]

I would bet the turn here.

I don't see MP1 or the SB checking AK or AA on this flop so I'm really only worried about the SB having QQ. I think MP1 has a mid pocket pair or has a hand like AQs or AJs and missed the flop.

I think you probably have the best hand here and that you should bet for value. Getting raised would be difficult but I think you would have to fold.

[Steve Giufre]

You really need to bet the turn there. You cant give someone with a bare A or Q in there hand a free shot at you on the river. You also have no reason to suspect you dont have the best hand. I think you can usually fold to a raise by either player, although its really player dependant.

[slavic]

What do we know about the SB? What about MP? I'm trying to decide if a 4th bet preflop is better than the cold call.

The turn bet has already been rehashed so i won't run that dog over again. I guess I just don't understand being passive in this spot unless you had something more on the other two players.

[vmacosta]

I cap here against typical players. I don't love the flop, but the absence of an ace makes me grit my teeth and lead on every street until raised (I might check/call the river since I don't expect a call from any hand that I can beat except specifically 99 or AQ from a very weak player).

[O'Doyle's Coach]

I'm Doyle's Coach, and wanted to say a few things before offering my analysis on the hands he selected.

I do not consider myself a top pro, and I did not portray myself as such to Doyle. I do consider myself a top 15/30 player for the party game, and I have statistical corroboration that I have a top bb/100 rate in the game and that's 8 tabling.

ODoyle has been a pleasure to work with - we easily hammered out a commission schedule such that I get paid zero if he loses money, but make a nice payout should his transition prove successful. While he started off on the wrong side of variance, we still hope he becomes a regular player and big winner there. He has worked diligently on his game and is very disciplined, almost too much so I think sometimes approaching weak-tight or monsters under the bed play. When I lose money, I spew chips, Doyle plays more catiously, but it also caps his upside.

Reviewing hand histories was just one part of what I offered as coach, I currently have decided not to go into the rest of it in too much depth.

onto the analysis:

3 handed I would cap JJ everytime as a default (i.e. without notes/read/info on the players invovled). I'd have to sit and do that math, but I think your equity here is solid (against a raise and re-raise), though not spectacular, but this also sets up the rest of the hand a bit better.

In this particular situation a cap has the added benefit of facing the intitial raiser with 2 more bets. While it won't happen often, you will sometimes get a fold here (10-30%?), and get to play the hand heads-up.

I would bet the large majority of the flops and this particular flop is a relatively good one for you, not great, but only one overcard and its not an Ace.

So, I say.

Cap pre-flop
bet the flop

Then the turn and river play differently cause if you get raised you are near certainly behind and can laydown if you dont have odds for your two-outer. If you get called down all the way by someone with AK or KQ, so be it, but there will be plenty of times where this extra aggression makes you money as unimproved AQ, 99, 88 will call you down. seriously. they will. It's a lot tougher to analyze the turn and river cause you need to know the action that corresponds to the different earlier plays.

The problem with playing this hand passively is you give overcards a cheap shot at seeing 5 cards. I think pre-flop is at least arguable, I think not betting the flop is a clear mistake.

[AviD]

Preflop call fine, case can be made for raising depending on player descriptions/types/etc.

When the flop gets checked through, lead the turn. Checking through here gives any A or Q a free look, which you can't afford. Protect your hand!

If you get raised, you have to determine the player and if they are tricky enough to not bet the flop with something like AK or KK or stronger. SB's 3-bet looks like a HU isolation raise to push you out, so he could have small pockets or just overcards but KQ/AK are possible, but not going to get checked through again on the turn...he's drawing or looking for a cheap showdown.

MP1s bet on the turn after you checked indicates either a strong hand he was hoping someone else would bet for him, a steal attempt or a value bet on something smaller than Ks. Easy call, but a raise would be nice here if MP1 isn't wild enough to 3-bet without a better hand than your JJ...getting 3-bet indicates you are clearly behind and have an easy fold IMO.

River as it played out, call down. You took the cheapest route to showdown but in the long run could give overcards to your Js free cards, as well as miss clear value bets against weaker hands that will call down...both of which will cost you alot of BBs.

In reading your posts, and absolutely no offense intended here, it seems like you are a mix of a passive weak-tight calling station. Definitely step up the aggression and protect your hands and value bet your hands. You are making alot of errors drawing on hands that are clear folds and just calling bets or checking when you should be raising bets or betting out yourself.

These are some essentials to winning play, and although I'm by no means an expert poker player, I think these fundamentals need to be learned and applied at lower levels before moving up. That is all just my opinion, take it for what it's worth, at least you are taking a step in a right direction with a coach now...but maybe you should try lower limits to hone these fundamentals first, unless money is not an issue and you enjoy the 15/30 as a learning ground.

That's my .02

Good luck!

[DrSavage]

I think a strong case can be made for both capping and cold calling preflop. The biggest advantage of capping is presenting the original raiser with 2 more bets and cold calling lets you see if original raiser caps it himself.
Having cold called preflop, I'm not happy about betting out on turn after the flop gets checked through. SB's check on this board after 3betting preflop worries me a lot, most of the times i saw this play SB had a monster. Betting is probably an order, but i can also see a check to find out if SB is going for the turn check-raise like played by the Hero. After SB just calls the turn bet he worries me no more and bet/fold on a non-ace river looks like the best option. If I would choose to bet the turn it looks like an easy fold against a raise by either player.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
What do we know about the SB? What about MP? I'm trying to decide if a 4th bet preflop is better than the cold call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the cold call here as I'd like to see if the original raiser caps it. That might help narrow things a bit.

Regards,

T