Pocket 9's

I played a home game NL tourney with some friends this weekend. Started with 8 players, $20 buy in, there were 3 rebuys of $20 for a $220 total prize. First place takes 75%, second takes 25%. It was down to 3 players when this hand came up:


We are playing with $3 SB and $6 BB. I am on the button with $53. SB is the chip leader with about $100, BB has about $70.


I get 9d9c and bet $15. SB thinks for a sec and asks me how much I have left. I tell him, and he bets $38. BB folds. A call puts me all in.


The SB had slowplayed KK once and QQ once already today, waiting til the turn to raise. With a big pair, I think he would have just called to see if he could get the BB in the pot, and then put me all in on the flop. He had also been very aggressive with the last 2 players that busted out, making bets that would have put them all in and getting them to fold. I had taken the last 3 or 4 pots without a showdown, so I thought he might be trying to stop my ante stealing. I figured his likely hands were middle pairs, 2 face cards, suited aces or kings, or maybe medium suited connectors. Of those, I am only a dog to TT. For better or worse, I decided to call all in.


Was this a mistake?


Results to follow...

I flip over my 9's, BB shows Ad3d. So far, so good.


Flop: 8 8 2, no diamonds.


Very good. No ace, his flush is gone, and he needs runner-runner for the inside straight.


Turn: [8 8 2] T.


Excellent. Only 3 cards in the deck that can beat me. I'll take the chip lead and go on to glory!!


River: [8 8 2 T] Ah. Damn.


Rivered. To add insult to injury, the BB flips over the cards he folded preflop: Ac3c!! I got rivered on a 2 outer, not 3!!! Arrrrggghhhh!


I have been thinking about this hand since then. I am very new to both NL and tournaments. My read on the SB was accurate, so I felt like I just got unlucky. Did I really take a bad beat, or did I overplay my pocket 9's? Did the BB have any business putting me all in with A3s? Did I have any business calling him once he did?


Please criticize me brutally, I'd like to learn from this.

Hi Mickey,


IMHO there is no way to muck 99 in this situation (3 handed) unless you KNOW that you are beat.


1st price pays 75%, 2nd 25%. With this structure you gotta take some chances to win first price. There is already so much in the pot, that you simply can´t fold. Your opponent might have a great spectrum of cards, especially since you have taken the last pots without a showdown. If he has A rag, you he´s dead to 3 outs. With 2 overcards you get a fair price for a 50%50 chance.


Of courst he might have TT or JJ, but I think you really have to call.


Martin

I don't think you did anything wrong with the way you played the hand. I probably would have called him also in that situation. But what about pushing all-in on your first bet? That would make some of those overcard-type hands think a little bit harder about calling you. Just a suggestion.

I seldom put all my chips in the middle when I know that the other guy wont fold, because of this I would have raised all in pre-flop. By only calling I don't think u thought through what u were going to do on the flop. What if s.b. only called b.b. folds and flop comes K,Q,7, s.b. bets out and u fold the best hand by far.

I don't see anything wrong with your play of the hand, nor his.


I mean, any A is a pretty big hand when there are only 3 of you left. What if you were stealing wiht garbage? He needs to raise so you don't catch a pair on the flop. What if you'll fold hands like A4-AJ? Now his raise looks really good. What if you'll fold hands like 33-88? Again, good raise on his part.


As for advice that you should've raised all-in preflop on your first action, I disagree COMPLETELY. That is a weak play, generally made by weak players. It is an admission that you aren't capable of making good decisions later in the hand, so you want to get all of those decisions out of the way now. If the blinds had been 5-10 or higher, it would be different. For most good players, a standard raise as the first one in is 3 times the big blind, or 18 in your case. If the standard raise requires close to half your chips or more, then an all-in raise is appropriate.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

No, its making the other players at the table have to make the decision instead of you.


By raising small, you are inviting overcard hands to come in after you. The odds are prety good that you'll flop at least one overcard to your hand. Then what? I agree in that it will come down to your ability to make a tough decision on the flop, but why allow yourself to get put in that situation? Even top players can make the wrong play here.


I'm not saying that you should fire your chips all in evertime you pick up 99 or similar. In fact, the vast majority of the time you wont, for some of the reasons you mentioned (copping out of decision making). But with only 3 players left, what are the odds that you are beaten pre-flop? I don't want these overcard-type hands in against me because they are not that big of a dog to my hand, so an all-in raise makes it a tough call for a lot of hands of that nature. Even if they do call, you are still the favorite, albeit a small one.

Sorry, I still think this type of play is usually wrong. When you overbet the pot by a large margin, you are risking a lot to win a little, and generally only get action from superior hands.


Now, if you occasionally make the big overbet, and do it against players you know and who can be manipulated by you, that's different. Sometimes the overbet looks suspicious and gets calls from hands that would fold to a pot-sized raise. Other than that type of spot, or where a pot-sized raise takes a large fraction of my chips, I think it is usually a mistake.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

I agree with you, Greg. I think that overbetting the pot, in most instances, with a hand like 99 or similar, is a losing play, although the play should be part of a players arsenal, to be brought out in the right circumstances. I think that if there is a time to bring it out, though, it would be when the tournament gets down to the final 3 or 4 or so because the risk is not nearly as great as if you were putting this move against a full table. Of course, if you run into a bigger pair, your only hope is to start praying, but I don't think you need to fear this nearly as much once the table becomes short-handed. I have found that more often than not, when I've made a play like this, the hands that I prefer to see not call, like the 2-overcard hands, tend to fold in this situation more than the hands I want to see call, like 88,77 etc., or to a lesser extent, hands like A8s or lower.