How can I protect my hands?

[Hack]

When I'm playing limits like .25/.50 and .50/1 on sites like Stars, I find that it's near impossible to protect my hand. I know that bigger pots are better and more opponents are better sometimes, but it seems that everytime I get dealt a hand like pocket kings or pocket jacks I have 6 or 7 opponents and I can NEVER make it out of the hand alive. Someone almost always has an ace. It really gets me down. It is only when I make monster hands like straights and flushes that I can win pots. I've read books like Low Limit Hold Em over and over and I'm only seeing the flop 25% of the time but another problem I have is that I don't know when I'm beat. Let's say that I have pocket kings and I raise and i get two callers, and the flop comes A27 rainbow. I bet of course and I get called, all the way to the river, when one of the two players shows me Ace-4 offsuit and wins the pot. He didn't give me any indications he had top pair by raising me, maybe because he's afraid that I had Ace-King or Ace-Queen. As I result I lose 3 or 4 bets on that hand.

And when I have 6 or 7 opponents Kings aren't the hand that they would be heads up. You only make a set or better on the flop about 12% of the time, after all.

I guess I am just frustrated that any pocket pair besides aces seems to get beat when I'm in a hand with that many people, and I just can't protect my hand. Believe me when I say that I do not slowplay kings when I raise before the flop. I come right out betting but I'm hardly ever raised so I have no idea where I am. If I were to check then someone would try to bluff at it since the pot is so huge.

I guess I need advice on how to play high pocket pairs because I find I prefer more speculative hands like suited connectors and smaller pocket pairs that I don't raise with. If I don't hit a smaller pocket pair I fold but if I don't hit a higher pocket pair on the flop and an Ace shows up then it's scary.
Considering all the trash my opponents play even when i's capped preflop, it's really hard to tell.

Or let's say I have Ace-Jack and I raise before the flop when it's folded to me. The blinds will NEVER, ever fold, no matter what they hold. One could be holding 37offsuit and one could be holding 96suited. They'll call and the flop will come rags for me but it probably helped them. I can't check the flop because then they'll try and bluff.

Maybe I'm just clueless. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems that everytime I get dealt a hand like pocket kings or pocket jacks I have 6 or 7 opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Or let's say I have Ace-Jack and I raise before the flop when it's folded to me. The blinds will NEVER, ever fold, no matter what they hold. One could be holding 37offsuit and one could be holding 96suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine how much more it would suck if every time you raised a premium hand, the whole table folded.

The important point to keep in mind is that when people cold-call your raises with inferior hands, you will get drawn out more so you'll win fewer pots, but the pots you win will be bigger. It helps if you remember you want to win chips, not pots.

[Hack]

I know topspin. I've heard it all before. I've read SSH and Low Limit Hold Em over and over again and both books mention that, but I'm the one who is getting drawn out on on at least 75% of my premium hands. How can I make money that way?

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
How can I protect my hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Always wash them and keep the nails clean to avoid infections. Wear gloves when doing strenuous work.

In loose games with a lot of players seeing the flop, don't push big offsuit cards as much. Be prepared to lose with premium hands more often. Play low pocket pairs and suited connectors more freely, especially for one bet, and expect the big pots to make up for all those suckouts.

NT

[Hack]

How can I tell when I'm beat though, say with pocket kings? If an ace on the flop comes and my opponents are just calling stations then it's really hard to tell when you're beat.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I know topspin. I've heard it all before. I've read SSH and Low Limit Hold Em over and over again and both books mention that, but I'm the one who is getting drawn out on on at least 75% of my premium hands. How can I make money that way?

[/ QUOTE ]
It either ain't 75%, or your sample size is way too damned small.

Hand protection is a difficult thing to accomplish, and differs on a situational basis. I wouldn't worry about it much until you play for a while longer; at this point, you're just going through one of the stages that most of us progress through at one point in our poker playing careers (i.e. "WHY WON'T THEY FOLD????").

Trust me: you don't want them to fold the vast majority of the time.

BTW, if you're seeing the flop 25% of the time, you're too loose.

Rob

[Hack]

I see your points, Entity, thanks.

I thought that seeing the flop anywhere from 20-25% was okay for a loose game. In my 10-person there are routinely anywhere from 7-9 players seeing the flop every hand, and I thought SSH says that you can open up your starting requirements a little bit because of this. I'm only playing what SSH recommends from early, middle and late position, based on the 10 person loose game scenario they discuss.

Another question if I may, as well. Let's say that I get pocket 10s in the big blind. Before it gets to me I have 7 opponents. Must I raise with them?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I see your points, Entity, thanks.

I thought that seeing the flop anywhere from 20-25% was okay for a loose game. In my 10-person there are routinely anywhere from 7-9 players seeing the flop every hand, and I thought SSH says that you can open up your starting requirements a little bit because of this. I'm only playing what SSH recommends from early, middle and late position, based on the 10 person loose game scenario they discuss.

Another question if I may, as well. Let's say that I get pocket 10s in the big blind. Before it gets to me I have 7 opponents. Must I raise with them?

[/ QUOTE ]
Around 20% is a decent target. You have to be good postflop to see the flop 25% and be profitable; if you're asking questions like these, you aren't there yet with your game, and should tighten up first, and then learn how to play the more difficult marginal hands second.

If you're asking this question regarding pocket 10's (not to be snide), you need to re-read SSH and try to forget some of what you've learned in WLLH. Don't be weak. Be aggressive with strong hands here. If someone raised, I'm 3-betting TT here.

It's going to take a while, but you're going to need to break out of this mindset. Trust me, though -- in a few months you'll look back at your old posts and simply smile, and ask WTF you were thinking. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[Hack]

Ok I think I'm starting to understand now, but if overcards flop, and some will flop most likely(if not, straight draws will be out there and the pot odds will be good enough for even inside straight draws to stick around), then do I back off and check call to the river, or if an ace flops should I just fold immediately if there is a bet and then a raise? If I hit a 10 on the flop I would probably cap it all the way to the river but I won't hit one of the two remaining tens the vast majority of the time.

Thanks.
And I will re-read SSH. I don't take it as a snide comment. I understand that I'm a newbie and that I will hopefully get better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought that seeing the flop anywhere from 20-25% was okay for a loose game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around 20% is a decent target. You have to be good postflop to see the flop 25% and be profitable; if you're asking questions like these, you aren't there yet with your game, and should tighten up first, and then learn how to play the more difficult marginal hands second.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hack is including the times that he's in the blind, 25% should be fine -- that would probably be a VP$IP of 18, which is plenty tight for a game with 7-9 people to the flop.

[Hack]

Yes I am, topspin, thanks.

I'm going by my PokerStars stats, and the bottom line in the stats section which includes times I'm in the small blind and big blind. I only see the flop about 17% of the time when I'm not in a blind. Is that fine?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought that seeing the flop anywhere from 20-25% was okay for a loose game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around 20% is a decent target. You have to be good postflop to see the flop 25% and be profitable; if you're asking questions like these, you aren't there yet with your game, and should tighten up first, and then learn how to play the more difficult marginal hands second.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hack is including the times that he's in the blind, 25% should be fine -- that would probably be a VP$IP of 18, which is plenty tight for a game with 7-9 people to the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I just thought he was basically stating he was playing 25% of his hands -- the statements are not necessarily the same, I agree.

Hack, I think that SSH may be, at this point, a bit advanced for you. It preaches quite a bit of tempered aggression and places a lot of emphasis on solid postflop play, but the book certainly isn't for beginners.

I've heard good things about Hilger's Internet Hold'em, but haven't read it; you may want to ask around and see what others think.

With hands like TT, you need to quantify what your opponents might have, and what the postflop action indicates they do have. Don't be afraid of a J on the flop unless someone gives you reason to. Check/calling to the river is weak and is a sure way to lose money playing in these games.

My recommendations would be, as follows:

Buy pokertracker (www.pokertracker.com).
Play 5,000 hands at .25/.5 on PokerStars (make sure you have $150 to play with).
Chart your progress.
Continue to read here.
Post hands that confuse you, and see what lines we might take in those situations.

That's what we're here for. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I am, topspin, thanks.

I'm going by my PokerStars stats, and the bottom line in the stats section which includes times I'm in the small blind and big blind. I only see the flop about 17% of the time when I'm not in a blind. Is that fine?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's just about perfect.

[Hack]

Thanks for the advice. I think that I will do that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bergh]

Welcome to the forum.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that I have pocket kings and I raise and i get two callers, and the flop comes A27 rainbow. I bet of course and I get called, all the way to the river, when one of the two players shows me Ace-4 offsuit and wins the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

KK is a marginal hand in these situations (if there are say 5 players seeing the flop), be prepared to fold if you meet resistance and don't expect to win much even when you don't. However, if the flop doesn't contain an ace (which will happen more often than not) your edge is usually rather big and all the calling statitions will start to pay of. So in the long run the kings sure will make you money...

Also don't let a small sample size fool you. My pocket aces have cost me more than they have given me, but on the other hand I have 8BB/100 over a couple of thousand hands. I don't trust either figures...

[ QUOTE ]
Or let's say I have Ace-Jack and I raise before the flop when it's folded to me. The blinds will NEVER, ever fold, no matter what they hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love that! Then I have a huge edge and I could extract a lot of bets from them...

By the way, these kind of general posts will be pretty much ignored here since they aren't very helpful. The best thing you can do is to post a few hands you are unsure about and ask specific questions. Also, answer other post and come with suggestions. If you come with crappy advice it will probably annoy other people, but it will help you improve your own game, so why care?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you should really move up in limits. the players are better and respect your raises more and won't suck out on you as often.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
you should really move up in limits. the players are better and respect your raises more and won't suck out on you as often.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's worked well for you, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[srt19170]

Do you use Poker Tracker? If you check, I'm sure you'll find that an Ace on the board doesn't happen that often when you're holding KK.

Topspin gave the correct answer -- just suck it up and soldier on. Bet until someone shows aggression is a remarkably good strategy.

But say you want to try something, and you're in a very passive game.

(I'm just rambling here...)

Suppose you check the flop if an Ace falls. This is good because if someone passive bets after your pf raise, they probably have an Ace, so you have a better idea where you stand. This is bad because when you're ahead you're giving the whole table a free chance to catch you. Overall I don't like this option, but if I did, I think I would use it from EP. That way you've announced weakness before the others bet so that someone who has an Ace will be more likely to announce it with a bet. If the bet comes from someone immediately to your right and/or you suspect a steal, you can always raise.

Another option is to bet the flop and then check the turn for a free card. If there's an Ace out there, it's +EV for you to see the river free. If you're acting last, you'll probably also see an Ace bet in front of you on the river, much like the check scenario above. Again, giving this free card is bad if you're ahead, but I like it here more than on the flop.

I don't know that you have many options on the river. If there's a bet in front of you, it's usually right to fold unimproved (modulo pot size). If it is checked to you I think you have to bet.

-- Scott