Stu Pidasso Vs Mr Peterson

I would like some comments on how I played this hand. Before anybody says I suck. Save your breath. I already am aware of that. I'm new to Poker (about 6 months experience). I am not a winning player, although I am improving steadily.


Preface:


Mr Peterson and I have played in tourneys together before so I know his play a little. I have considerable respect for his play. First time together in a multitable tourney. Mr Peterson has recently been moved to this table.


Level VIII (800/1600) - 2001/11/26 - 23:55:02 (EST)

Table '550 4' Seat #1 is the button

Seat 1: Mr. Peterson (17976 in chips)

Seat 2: thebigredone (6020 in chips)

Seat 3: Stu Pidasso (12829 in chips)

Seat 4: whyworry (7291 in chips)

Seat 5: LuLu (2100 in chips)

Seat 6: razor (4540 in chips)

Seat 7: ohbucky (10887 in chips)

Seat 9: gotabug (14628 in chips)

thebigredone: posts small blind 400

Stu Pidasso: posts big blind 800

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Stu Pidasso [Td Js]


*I'm in the Big Blind*


whyworry: folds

LuLu: folds

razor: folds

ohbucky: folds

gotabug: folds


*Before the action gets to Peterson - I'm thinking if everyone folds Petersons going to raise with a marginal hand or better because its the correct play. I am also thinking I should re-raise him if he does because there is a good chance my cards are as good as or better than his. More importantly, I want to let Peterson know I'm willing to defend my blinds, and will punish him if he tries to steal with garbage*


Mr. Peterson: raises 800 to 1600

thebigredone: folds

Stu Pidasso: raises 800 to 2400

Mr. Peterson: calls 800

*** FLOP *** [2s 3h 9s]


*I'm thinking I cannot show weakness here so I better bet the flop*


Stu Pidasso: bets 800

Mr. Peterson: raises 800 to 1600


*I'm thinking Mr Peterson knows I would autobet the flop and given the texture of the flop it probably missed me so he raised as bluff or to buy a free card if hes drawing.....Lets see what the turn card brings*


Stu Pidasso: calls 800


*** TURN *** [2s 3h 9s] [Tc]


*I got top pair weak kicker I'll bet and see what Peterson does. If he raises I'm facing a set or two pair. If he calls hes on a draw*


Stu Pidasso: bets 1600

Mr. Peterson: calls 1600


*** RIVER *** [2s 3h 9s Tc] [Jc]


*An improvement...but now its very possible Peterson made his draw. I'll bet because If I check he may check behind me if he does not have a hand- then that I would loose a bet*


Stu Pidasso: bets 1600

Mr. Peterson: raises 1600 to 3200


*Crap.....he made his draw. I'll call because I can't afford to fold and error*


Stu Pidasso: calls 1600


*** SHOW DOWN ***

Mr. Peterson: shows [9h Jh] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)

Stu Pidasso: shows [Td Js] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)


Stu Pidasso collected 18000 from pot


Did I play this incorrectly? I think it may have been better to check the river. If he made a straight I could make a crying call at a cost ofr 1 bet. If I check and I have a better hand I might induce a bluff.


Stu

Yes, I would agree with checking the river. As you say, you're more likely to make money by inducing a bluff (or a mistaken value bet) than by getting called by a lesser hand, and if he makes the straight or otherwise has you beat (set), you lose more by betting out.


All of this is even more true when the opponent is a known aggressive player.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Basically well thought out and played, though I would suggest a little different approach:


1. If Mr. Peterson knows you will autobet the flop, then why bet it? You don't have anything, and neither does he (probably). You won't fold if he bets, and giving him the chance to raise you just complicates matters. No need to build a pot when all you have is bad overcards... and you won't be able to steal with that flop. I'd check-call the flop


2. Betting the turn is the correct play with top pair, but a raise by Mr. P is not as likely to be two pair as it is to be a set or top pair with a better kicker.


3. As Fossilman said, checking the flop is a better play for the reasons you both stated.


If Mr. P raised on the turn, what would you have done? That's what I would have done if I were playing Mr. P's hand without knowing what you held.


Craig H

Why get into a confrontation with the biggest stack at the table holding only JTo?

Well i must be very critical of your play.


Firstly calling preflop with marginal cards against a player you acknowledge is tight and aggresive and has position on you is a suspect play.


On the flop you bet and are raised by the player in position. AND YOU HAVE NOTHING NOT EVEN A DRAW! Time to throw your hand in the muck. Even if it is a steal, what are you going to do with JT? You either have to reraise steal, or FOLD. Many players get stuck into the idea of thinking hes stealing i'll call, without ever thinking can i beat a bluff? What if you get no help at all from the board? Do you call the river with J high? Your decision on the flop is usually the most important one you make in these situations and this one is a SHOCKER.


Basically you incorrectly decided to close your eyes and pray for a miracle on the turn and river. Just because you nailed a 3 outer and then extracted more when you both improved the river doesn't make your play beforehand any better.


Other than that, hope to see you again at the tables soon Stu. You do know that cost me the Tournament don't you. Oh well i'll get over it, i'm having therapy next week.

He should call on the flop. He should think he has 6 outs at this point plus the backdoor straight draw and he is getting 9.5:1 on his call.


-Glenn

nm

Doesn't sound like a good reason to call on the flop. I don't like to consider pot-odds too highly in a tournament. It only takes not catching one draw to be crippled and this is the perfect situation not to draw. He is out of position against a player with enough chips to play comfortably and who could share one of his cards with a higher kicker leaving only 3 outs.


The only time I don't mind drawing is if the other player can't dramatically affect my stack size. The limits here are too high in relation to stack size to risk it. Mr Peterson goes for a steal and has a made hand on the flop, so his play makes sense. I can't rationalize Stu's line of thinking. He is pushing a very small edge even if he is correct in his hand-reading ability. Better opportunities will come along to make money.

To all of those who agree with Stu's play on the flop, I look forward to seeing you at the table. To call with weak overcards against a player who has not only position on you but has raised you twice is a weak play. Bad in money games, worse in tournaments. He would need at least a flush or straight draw with his overcards to make a call justifiable (although probably still incorrect). You are no doubt the kind of players who can't release KK when an Ace flops and it's bet and raise into you.


I like Stu and i normally consider him to be sound, but calling on the flop with nothing and 2 weak overcards that could well be outgunned by a set or an overpair is foolhardy at best.

After reading everyone’s comments here, additional reading of HEFAP, and a lot of thinking, I believe I could have played the hand better. The following are my conclusions


Although this is a limit tournament as opposed to No-limit, I still must take in consideration stack sizes and the importance of surviving a hand with enough chips to continue on comfortably. I felt strongly Peterson was on a steal. I re-raised at the time not so much to benefit that hand, but to benefit future hands down the road. I did not want Peterson picking off my blinds all night. In a ring game, I might accomplish my goal and gotten a lot of future value from that one bet. In a tourney such as this, odds are we will be separated in a future table consolidation. Since re-raising is unlikely to drive Peterson out before the flop, and I get no significant value in future hands. It has no positives in this situation. Conversely, re-raising builds a pot, making it harder for me to release my hand should I miss. I do feel however that if I were in the small blind, the re-raise would have been appropriate, for the purpose of driving out the Big Blind and getting heads up. However in this situation I should probably call


Once I re-raised, it was correct to bet the flop. I have to play according to the hand I have placed him on. He got lucky this flop hit him. Had it missed, (it looked as if it had missed both of us) he probably would have folded here (as I am now representing an over pair). He may know I have nothing and still fold to my bet because it may not be correct for him to call.


After Peterson raises, I have to accept that I’m not going to bully this pot from him and I’m likely behind. I have nothing except over cards, a backdoor straight, and backdoor flush. The question becomes do I try to draw out on him? The over cards give me 6 outs to improve directly, 8 other outs would give me a straight draw, and 8 outs would give me a Flush draw. Its true that right now I do not have much of a hand, but one more card can make this hand playable. How much does it cost to see this one card? A little more than 1/10th the current pot, and as it turn out a little more than 1/22nd of the final pot. Mathematically I am not making a mistake calling here. Even if some of those outs are dead, I still have enough to make the call and see the turn card. Is it tactically correct to call and see the turn card? If I fold now I have about 8800 in chips. If I call, miss the turn card, check and fold, I will have about 8000 in chips. Tactically it makes sense to call and see this card as releasing the hand with 8000 in chips is only minimally worse than releasing it with 8800.


Once the 10 hits should I have bet? I have top pair and an over card kicker. If I check, I feel Peterson will bet. If I bet he may fold, call, or raise. I really do not want to see him raise. Since betting potentially increases my losses if I have the weaker hand, and check/calling would minimize them. It would be better to check call the hand all the way down.


I want to thank those who contributed their thoughts to this discussion as it helped me to better my play. Mr Peterson I do look forward to playing together in the future.

After betting the turn I would have $7229 in chips, if he raised me and I call, I'm alomst committed at this point. Since the 10 does not give me a straight flush draw, I realistically only have 2 outs(If I put him on a set). In order for the call to be correct, there would need to be around 350000 in the final pot. The correct play would be to fold and lick my wounds.


Stu

Justify your call on the flop all you want. However, nothing i've heard makes it right. You may think i'm on a steal but i may have KK too. In which case you are horribly behind.


As it is you have 3 outs, and the fact you hit doesn't justify calling with no draw and 2 very weak overcards on the flop, just because you suspect that i would rightly go for a steal here. And really an opening raise with J9s on the button is far from a cold steal. There is no good top class player i know that would call here. Many would reraise occasionally, but more often than not fold, NEVER call.

"You may think i'm on a steal but i may have KK too. In which case you are horribly behind."


Well let's see, either you (an aggressive player in a streal raise position) have a)a steal raise hand or b)KK (a 220-1 shot). Stu correctly decided you had the steal raise hand and re-raised you preflop, showing plenty of strength of his own out of the blinds.By your logic, he must have AA to do this, so why don't you just give up on your steal and fold yourself? (since IF he did have AA you would be horribly behind yourself)


I think Stu acted on his read you were on a steal and played accordingly and very well. The fact that you got a piece of the flop with your own rags doesn't really matter much here, IMO. The facts to me here is you got caught stealing with rags and Stu's play should not be faulted as he had his reads and thought out the hand very well.


What about your play? You had no high card strenght with your steal move, and had plenty of chips to wait for a better hand, didn't you? Don't you think you should have been tangling with a lessor size stack with such garbage?

No there's nothing wrong with stealing in this situation, particularly as i have recently been showing down very good hands, and i have never tried to steal off Stu before. I don't fault his reraise preflop, and had i not paired i would probably have folded to his bet on the flop.


I also think his bet on the flop was good. I just think calling with absolutely nothing when raised again is a bad play. His cards could not even beat a likely steal hand of any description. He's beaten by a lone Q, K, or A. He is beaten by any pair. If had had reraised rather than calling the pot was his. Therefore the play must be fold or reraise. Anyone who thinks calling was right here, is way too results orientated.


Oh and J9 suited is not a junk hand, when you figure to either pick up the blinds, or play with position against a random big blind hand.

Since I still have outs, at some point the the pot could contain enough money that it would be correct to call.


How much money would the pot need to contain for me to call the turn with the outs that I have?


Stu

Stu, with your particular cards, i think you would have to forget about that actual pot and save chips for the rest of the tournament. Pot odds become fairly irrelevant at this stage of a tournament, as one hand can decimate your stack. In a money game you can always get more money, but with no rebuys you are commiting too many chips in a hand where you have nothing, and don't know where you stand if you improve. Counting outs when playing a tournament pot is often incorrect, particularly when there is a chance you may be drawing next to dead.


The problem is that if you are against a good hand like AA, KK, or QQ (and you cannot exclude that posibility), you need to make at least 2 pair to have a shot at the pot, and maybe even require a runner, runner straight or flush to win the pot as you would vs a set (in which case the pot must be about 75 times larger than the bet on the flop, as you have to pay a half bet and a full bet to continue for a 25 to 1 shot). My reccomendation for future play is to simply protect your stack when you don't buy help on the flop (and lets be realistic you have no draw and two bad overcards the flop couldn't have missed you much worse). If you strongly feel you are against a steal, you MUST play back at the raiser or release your hand.


Anyway, good luck Stu, and I'll see you at the tables again soon.

Maybe your hand wasn't garbage, and it was sooted, but Stu had you going in right? JT better than J9 right? I think you took a gamble with it and got beat, and I didn't think you should fault Stu all that much for taking a gamble with his.Best wishes Mr. Peterson


respectfully-hillbilly-the devils advocate

Mr. Peterson wrote:

> Counting outs when playing a tournament pot is

> often incorrect, particularly when there is a

> chance you may be drawing next to dead.


Although this is a statement you hear a lot, even from some very good tourney players, I must disagree with it. It is NEVER incorrect to count your outs, and it is seldom incorrect to go for a draw, as long as you have sufficient pot odds.


Now, if it's early or middle, I say play it just like a ring game. If you'd go for it in a cash game, you should go for it in the tourney. Once you get in or near the money, you might need more than just merely sufficient pot odds, but you should still consider your outs.


To take an extreme, what if almost every chip in the tourney were in the pot, and you had to call your last little bit? Of course you'd go for it if you had any outs at all, as going for it would be your highest EV play in such an extreme case.


later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

The problem with the best hand going in, is that it means shit if it misses the flop and the other guy hits. Sure if the pot is huge and you have next to no chips left to fight on with, you call and hope for the best. But you cannot play on with nothing when there is still a lot of money to be bet. Really if you have KK and it's the best hand going in, does that matter if someone has A4o and an A flops? You may as well have a pair of 2s. Save your chips so you can use them later.

I just read that. I know it was a while ago, but I take issue with:

"I look forward to seeing you at the table"

"You are no doubt the kind of players who can't release KK when an Ace flops and it's bet and raise into you."


You can think whatever you want, but seriously, save the insults, there is no place for that sort of thing here. You are no expert, and while I'm sure you are at least semi-competant, I don't think you have any right to insult Jeff or myself. If you think I'm wrong, prove it, but save the insults. Also, I am not one to react to a challenge, but if you really want to play me then lets go! I think it would be fun. Paradise play money heads-up 300 each until someone has all of it seems ok to me, but if your ego says you have to play for real money (some people have a real problem with this) then we can play for real money. The reason I suggested play is that if you're any good it might be tough to beat the rake. Let me know... Also if anyone else happens upon this and is curious I would love to play any 2+2er. It would be interesting to match the game with the posts.