A6s in BB, Bayes can go to hell

[kyro]

At the table with a 2+2er, but he's not involved in this hand. These are the types of hands I hate. Anyone like a river check after the original raiser cold-called by turn raise? Anyone agree that checking the flop is dumb? Only read is that main villain typed in "bluffed" after he won a hand. Not sure what that means. I'm not very good at poker...

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, SB folds.

River: (9 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[PokerBob]

Hmmm....I think I may have been the villain. Whe was the hand? What was the villain's moniker?

[kyro]

joh84

[btspider]

fold preflop.

tough postflop situation.

i would check-call the flop and look to get into the check-call, check-call, bet line. the flush potential sucks, but you'll only force them to put a lot of bets in when you are drawing slim yourself.

I don't like MP2's play, regardless of what he has.. especially if he doesn't have the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif to go with his A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 99 would be a poor hand to showdown as well.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

He is probably looking at getting 7:1 on his preflop call from the BB. I would call this, and not feel too bad about it (I think it is about 8:1 to flop a 4-flush). Am I way off here? Is this call a MASSIVE error, or just an error.

[kyro]

btspider,

thanks for the reply. you think folding Axs getting 6:1 on my money and most likely 7:1 is correct. I know my position sucks, and I'd fold this in any other position except for maybe the button and an unraised SB. That being said, I'd like reasoning as to why folding is the best play.

Also, I'm not sure I like checking the turn if UTG doesn't bet out. Since it was checked around, there's a decent chance I have the best hand and I want to get my money in there now. I'm thinking calling UTG's bet should have my modus operandi though to see if MP raises. Eh, I dunno. Keep talking about it please. I'm so confused.

[bennyk]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]wow.

[ QUOTE ]

i would check-call the flop and look to get into the check-call, check-call, bet line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. You have a very good hand, but you may be behind. It feels like you should show it down, and this way you lose the least when you're behind.
bk

[Losfer]

I like your play. When the flop gets checked around, you've got to like your hand. I'd really like to know what MP2 had, he played that very strange. There aren't two cards that I would play like that.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

He is probably looking at getting 7:1 on his preflop call from the BB. I would call this, and not feel too bad about it (I think it is about 8:1 to flop a 4-flush). Am I way off here? Is this call a MASSIVE error, or just an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

i might be off actually. its definitely not a massive error. its close either way. i'd have preferred another player before making the call here. what does SSH's tight chart show?

edit: i also thought MP2 was the 2+2er, which is why i said his play sucked. i read the first pp too quickly.

[theghost]

I think SSH tight says "play hands you would play from LP, except weaker offsuit hands like KJo/TJo." (Paraphrasing)

Personally, I play Axs in this spot.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
He is probably looking at getting 7:1 on his preflop call from the BB. I would call this, and not feel too bad about it (I think it is about 8:1 to flop a 4-flush). Am I way off here? Is this call a MASSIVE error, or just an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

more thoughts.. i may be back in the fold camp unless my opponents routinely go too far with their hands (cop-out /images/graemlins/smile.gif). suffice to say, its close either way.

remember that you would only have a flush draw. so you still are relying on some implied odds here that you must make up. with only 3 opponents, you will maybe gain some EV via value raising.. but often 1 or 2 will fold and you'll make a minus implied odds call (+EV due to pot odds though). the turn is almost always a minus implied odds street for a draw (again +EV due to pot odds).

so really i like to get immediate odds on my draw, figuring that my postflop implied odds will break about even.. that's my thinking anyways. implied odds can only be counted on when you make more than your fair share. i think you'll often put in more than your fair share here with your draw and thus be breaking even in the implied odds department. dunno if that makes sense.. i honestly made it all up b/c i haven't dissected this before /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

Fold PF.

You have a strong hand. Bet right out on the flop, dont go for the C/R. You flopped trips, and are likely the best hand at the moment. But you are vulnerable. The pot was raised PF, which could indicate a stonger set.

You would like to protect your hand, but in this situation you really can't. The PFR was to your left, and the pot's too big. Bet the flop, call down if raised.

[theghost]

I think of this call as similar to completing w/ any two suited from the SB. You are putting in 1/2 the $$ that everyone else is, with this many participants it seems like a good call to me. (Especially with Axs)

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think of this call as similar to completing w/ any two suited from the SB. You are putting in 1/2 the $$ that everyone else is, with this many participants it seems like a good call to me. (Especially with Axs)

[/ QUOTE ]
It's close. A read on MP2 really helps here, especially his preflop aggression. I think I'd fold here now, but I don't hate a call.

I've made similar calls in the past. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1000590&amp;Forum =f21&amp;Words=A3s&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=1000250&amp; Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=13485&amp;daterange=1&amp;newer val=16&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=# Post1000590)

(and before you comment, I really screwed that one up postflop)

Rob

[bennyk]

I agree. I don't want to parade out the SSH quotes, but there is a hand quiz that advocates calling a raise from the BB with as little as 95s.

bk

[Piiop]

There was no PFR in that post you crazy monkey.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I think of this call as similar to completing w/ any two suited from the SB. You are putting in 1/2 the $$ that everyone else is, with this many participants it seems like a good call to me. (Especially with Axs)

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally need 3 limpers to complete with any-2 suited.. so I'd like one more cold-caller before calling here.

also, we are cutting into our implied odds a little bit by putting in 2 bets preflop as opposed to only 1. our card ranks are also more dubious in the face of a PFR.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
There was no PFR in that post you crazy monkey.

[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about, Pippop?

[Piiop]

WTF did you change that link???

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to parade out the SSH quotes, but there is a hand quiz that advocates calling a raise from the BB with as little as 95s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty different situations. In that one, UTG raised and there were 3 coldcallers and Hero has 96s. In that hand, the Hero has great relative position and the raiser is described as "aggressive" so he'll be raising with less than Group 1 hands. Also, 96s has a lot less chance of being dominated.

I don't have a problem with the call this hand since the raiser is in a later position and therefore less likely to have A6s dominated (tho it should still be a concern). There are 2 other players in and the Hero's position is mediocre. So I'd say it's OK, but I wouldn't berate a fold.

[bennyk]

Yeah, ok. I didn't dig up the pages and re-read the example so i didn't have it quite right.

This sure is a thorough treatment of the issue though /images/graemlins/wink.gif
bk