Can poker tracker operate as a crutch?

[Wynton]

I'm only beginning to take advantage of all aspects of pokertracker, though I have had it downloaded for nearly a year. It's great, of course, but I wonder whether it can also operate as a crutch.

I am thinking specifically of the use of pokertracker to categorize opponents, through the statistics it generates. While this approach undoubtedly will add to your bottom line, doesn't it also discourage independent analysis? In other words, if I rely on pokertracker to tell me that an opponent should be considered loose-aggressive by virtue of the percentage that he calls and raises, won't I be neglecting to develop my skill at reading the player? If so, couldn't this practice impede my long-term growth as a poker player?

Again, I don't doubt that a person can greatly increase his or her bottom line figure by utilizing pokertracker's statistics on opponents - not to mention all the other useful aspects of the software - but if my goal is to become more skillful (rather than just make more $), I question whether it is a good idea to rely on such statistical analyses.

[mack848]

I agree; if you play B+M, as well as online.

For online-only players, I think that Pokertracker has, or will, become the standard tool. When most good players use this type of statistical aid, they will all be looking at the same numbers. The more studious players will still have the advantage.

I cannot see any reason to put yourself at the disadvantage of foregoing PT, unless honing skills for B+M play.

[Sixth_Rule]

Online Poker isn't a poker room near you with regulars and people who play at the tables for hours and hours. If i had to guess i would say that the average session is about 1 hour

besides a few notable exceptions i didn't recognize many people online even though iwas playing daily.
Poker tracker dosn't help you read people in live play but it can help you in the multi table short session world of online poker

[kevyk]

I totally disagree with the premise of this thread.

IMO, the opposite happens: PT users become more observant. Of course they become used to having reads on people automatically, but they also become used to using that information to make poker decisions.

Someone who is using PT to its fullest potential is not the type to go into a B+M cardroom and simply zone out. He will try to use the same thought processes he uses online, and to do that he'll have to pay attention.

[Wynton]

Honestly, I don't know the answer to the question I posed, it's just a question. Also, I want to emphasize that I'm only wondering about the value of one particular use of PT.

Kevyk, while I can see that people who use PT are likely to be giving more thought to their decisions than those who don't, it does not necessarily follow that PT is aiding their skills at getting reads on their opponents in the first place.

Let me put it this way: it seems to me that one of the most important poker skills is the ability to figure out your opponent as quickly as possible. We agree that PT gives us a big headstart in categorizing players (and will certainly improve one's earnings). I'm just not sure that this advantage is a good thing for developing skills in the long run.

[kevyk]

My only point is that players who are used to making poker decsions based on their PT reads are going to feel so lost without it that they'll be FORCED to observe their opponents closely.

Contrast that to the average B+M player who plays his cards only and has never been shown the value of a read.

[flair1239]

I think it makes me more observant. I start rating players at 50 hands. In my player notes I have it show the number of hands that I have on each player.

If I have a player who is rated "Loose pf, Aggressive pf, and Aggressive after the flop"; but I only have 50-60 hands on him... I am actually watching him closer than I would a new player. Because I am trying to ascertain, whether that is how he actually plays... or if he was just on a good run of cards during the previous session.

[pfkaok]

I agree with Kev here, as I think the PT stats are most helpful if you're multitabling too many tables to possibly keep track of all the players. Then when you're actually in a hand, you can figure out the best way to play the hand with the extra variables of say a LA-P before you, and 2 LP-P's and a TA-A acting after you. This way it works on your skills when you're in a casino and are in a scenario where you can get reads on who you're up against. Having great reads (with PT) on most players in several games at a time online will help you in exploiting the mistakes of the players that you're up against.

[ZeeBee]

PT has actually helped my reading skills by giving me something to cross check with. I keep the Gametime Window in the background (rather than Kevin Ross's new overlay). I've found, for example, that a guy I had pegged as hyper aggressive in fact had only a 7% PFR. it just happened that I was particularly noticing his raises (they oftn happened to be when I was in the blinds). PT's stats showed me that my reads were biased and I need to be more careful about first impressions.

ZB

[turnipmonster]

I think poker tracker is helpful but it's only one ingredient in the soup. lots of factors are required for good hand reading, understanding opponents tendencies on a small sample size of hands is only one of the factors.

IMO lots of people tend to fetishize their stats.

--turnipmonster

[wdbaker]

This is a repost from the other day on the "Poker Theory" forum.


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As poker players, we make our money pushing a variety of edges, within and outside of the game itself. While one could debate that pushing any edge that is ultimately +EV is correct, there are some edges outside of the game that some argue as "unethical" to push. I am mostly talking to online players whose main intention is to make a profit. There seems to be no clear answer to the correctness of pushing these edges, as they have been heavily debated on the forums.


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Some of the edges I am talking about:

Affiliate Deals

A tragedy of the commons, the more players that find a way to use these, the higher the rake must go for the site to maintain it's current profitability. For the poker community as a whole, it makes sense to not use them, but as an individual poker player, to not use them is giving up great value in the long run.


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My thought on affiliate deals goes like this... The money being paid out is for advertising, that's what affiliates do. If you can work out a deal that allows you to get back some or all of the money that you pay in for them to advertise and run the place then more power to ya as long as it doesn't violate the terms and conditions that you are playing or affiliating under.


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Data Mining and Sharing Hand Histories

Giving us an edge (if properly employed) over players who we may have never played against before. Some argue it as unethical ("Have some respect for your opponents"), but it is clearly a +EV proposition.


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I'm in a somewhat unique position here in that I am very successful at my game for over a year and do not use notes, PT or anything. I play TAG ABC poker on 4 tables 100 NL ring games.
I read the books when I started, and bought WTTH software to practice with for a bit.

I often wonder what I'm missing with out PT, but I also know that my game is constantly changing and so if everyone elses game is also changing, aren't I going to run into trouble looking at the #'s they had, which may not be the #'s they have now.

Also people come and go so fast, not just on the table but at the game period. If it takes 10,000 hands for me to get an Idea how I'm doing, then why wouldn't it also take that long for me to get a solid read on those players I have data on?

I can see how something like PT can help me personally over the long run, other than that I still feel like it may be more of a crutch and detriment to my game if used realtime...

Do they have PT for BM games...

I just don't know what the answer is...

I think PT for use after the game to keep track of sessions, replay things and make personal corrections in my game is cool and for that reason I will likely buy it soon and may be stupid for not having gotten it sooner.



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Hacking & Bots

Unless done knowledgably and properly with the right tools, a -EV risk for most players. So it does not concern us greatly for this discussion.


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No hacking or bots unless disclosed and part of the T&C's. This is definately wrong and I'm not so sure PT doesn't fit in this category when used while playing.


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I know I've missed a few, but the final question I propose to you is: What determines the edges that we should and shouldn't push, and why? Some feel it unethical to take advantage of any info our opponents do not have access to as well, while others see it as ridiculous to not take advantage of those edges which present themselves to us. How can we, as reasonable poker players out to make the most we can, determine what is right and what is wrong?


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Great questions Elektrik and please understand that I'm responding to everyone and trying to think through it myself also.

Elektrik is asking the hard questions that we need to define, maybe by a self governing poker body, we can run it like the UN


One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co