Party Poker - Solid play simply doesn't win here?

[Terminator]

Played at Party Poker last few days. Just cannot win. Raise my premium hands, flop decent, but have been runner-runner-rivered in every decent hand I've sat down with. Without exception I am flopping the best hand, and getting drawn out every single time.

Examples.

AQo button. Raise against the blinds. Both call. Flop comes AJT rainbow. I bet it out, they both call. Turn comes 7c (giving a club-flush draw now). I'm check-raised when I bet out my top pair good kicker, and figure the guy for slow-playing with KQ maybe. River is a T. He turns over T7s. Jesus.

I have 99 on the button. Raise it, get two/three callers. Flop comes J63 rainbow. I bet out, after it's checked around to me. Get two callers. Turn is nothing, and river is a K, which I check to figuring that if you called the flop, you have the J and I'm beat. He turns over K2s. One overcard chase on the flop and turn! Incredible.

Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here? I win most other places I play ring games, but seem to always struggle at Party which I understand has some of the worst players, next to Pacific.

[zuluking]

Nobody really wins at Party Poker. Its a vast conspiracy.

[Tosh]

Solid play is exactly what you need at Party Poker.

[Enon]

And you've never gone through 2 day losing streaks live or online before??

But to answer your question: yeah, party is rigged to favor the sh*tty hands over the premium ones. Start playing those hands and you'll start winning. I've also heard those pattern mapper programs are pretty good.

Good luck!

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

If you don't see how the hands you described are precisely the reason good players win at Party, you may not be ready for real money games.

[Terminator]

Bigbaitsim, are you suggesting I played those hands wrong? Or that I was just unlucky?

[Predator314]

Poker is still a gambling game. You're gonna lose sometimes no matter how well you play.

[Terminator]

I can understand that, but sometimes the beats at Party beggar belief. I've seen three quad nines today alone, in just a few hours.

[1800GAMBLER]

you are meant to see quads. eventually, you are meant to see 3 quad nines in a day. people are meant to win the lottery and every year one person will die from a heart attack when undressing a fat girl. these are all rare events but they are meant to happen.

Eventually i expect to see a royal flush dealt on the board in order. So yes, i also expect to lose to runner runners, i also expect to lose to runner runners 5 times on the run, 10 times on the run, 20, 50 etc, i expect to lose 400bbs/$12000 at the 15/30 for a 2nd time in my career due to these suck outs, it's just variance, but while i'm losing this my overall win rate per hour will remain the same.

Get your money in when ahead, protect it when behind, be properly bankrolled and you will win.

[Greg J]

Yeah I went on a 100 BB upswing b/c idiots were playing crap like that, only were not spiking that king. Believe it or not, there are times when th suckouts don't come, and -- believe it or not -- you good holdings actually hold up.

I subsequently went on a 100 BB downswing, where all my sets fell to runner runner inside straights, backdoor flushes, and insane holdings like that. Poker is a game of variance.

Look back at this thread when you are on a stretch where all yr good hands hold up. Short term results are just that. It's probably a good idea that you resign yrself to this, or take up another game. No one wins all the time.

Edit: this assumes you are a winning player. You may not be -- I'm not saying you are not, I just can't say. But to answer the titlular line of your post, yes, solid play does win at Party.

[Big Country]

[ QUOTE ]
Bigbaitsim, are you suggesting I played those hands wrong? Or that I was just unlucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't see why what Bigbaitism was saying had nothing to do with how you played the hand, you may want to consider reading the Fundamaental Theorem of Poker over and over for about 3 hours a day until New Year's.

Once you have the epiphany from having that ingrained in your brain, you will see the meaning of Bigbaitism's words.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Bigbaitsim, are you suggesting I played those hands wrong? Or that I was just unlucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's saying that weak players making loose calls in small pots will make you a fortune in the long run, but expect to get out drawn fairly often. If you don't appreciate both parts of that statement, you may want to reflect on it until you do.

I'll add that your post may attract the bad beat police.

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand that, but sometimes the beats at Party beggar belief. I've seen three quad nines today alone, in just a few hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally hit quad aces twice yesterday. Party is so rigged it hurts. Good players have no chance of winning if the other guy can get quad aces every hand.

Freakin

[Stinos Dude]

you represented decent hands in both these cases, but you were under the correct assumptions that stronger hands could and probably will win. Because you were already not favored to win, why are you complaining about losing to a river. The result is still the same.

Poker has an element of luck to it. No one can claim that "they win at all sites but not party poker". Im not understanding your frustration.

[Alobar]

Heh, I read the title of your post and thought I'd read what you wrote for kicks. Thanks for not dissapointing, I was definately entertained.

[Blacklisted]

[ QUOTE ]
Played at Party Poker last few days. Just cannot win.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 3.4 bajillion posts on these forums exactly like these. Every single one of them gets ridiculed, because the poster is either ultra-paranoid, a piss-poor poker player who thinks he's great, or both.

Solid play wins at Party Poker -- and pretty much any legit cardroom (which Party is). Whether you're a solid player or not, it's hard to tell. You could be.

It's doubtful, simply because most solid players understand the concept of variance, and don't start thinking a place is rigged if they hit a downswing.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, I read the title of your post and thought I'd read what you wrote for kicks. Thanks for not dissapointing, I was definately entertained.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still doing your spelling challenge? Just curious.
-James

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, I read the title of your post and thought I'd read what you wrote for kicks. Thanks for not dissapointing, I was definately entertained.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still doing your spelling challenge? Just curious.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

nope, It's back to my old ways of spelling like a 3rd grader!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I only made a couple mistakes during that week that got pointed out. (that met the required criteria). Thankfully tho Spammuell was the only one that actually emailed me an avatar and location. The other 2 never did.

[fimbulwinter]

less suckouts at NL. lemme pull a seat up for ya.

fim

[BusterStacks]

It's obviously rigged, didn't you read the disclaimer? For entertainment purposes only. Regardless, although you seem to think you know HOW to win, you clearly aren't ready to win.

[Hermlord]

I won't make fun of you like some others, but....they're totally right. The worse the competition, the more suckouts, simply because they will stay in more with hands that are behind. You want this, it's good, it is what makes you money. If you can't handle the swings, then either you are playing at too high a limit, or you have fundamental gaps in your understanding of the game. Reread (or read!) Theory of Poker and SSH.

[Why Are You Envious?]

In a casino this past Friday, I saw 4 quads handed out in 2.5 hours. It happens, get over it.

[fearme]

play for a month and see

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, only loose, bad players win there. Switch strategies to emulate these players and you'll win a boatload.

b

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker - Solid play simply doesn't win here?

[/ QUOTE ]


It's POSSIBLE that you're play is reasonably solid. Although it's VERY likely that your play could be improved.

Regardless of whether your play is solid (or 'kind of' solid, or whatever) you are NOT a 'solid player'.
If you don't understand the variance involved and that sometimes bad players will beat you with bad PF-hands then you just aren't a solid player.

You're running bad and want to 'blame' the opposition for 'not playing correctly'.
Variance happens and 'solid players' already know that.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer your question, yes. I do. Very much so. Scarily so sometimes, especially at 2/4 and 3/6, where some of the worst players play, employing many of the oddball plays you cite in your post.

And now, a word from our sponsor, Sample Size Man....

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, they all lose. That's why this forum is populated with some of the luckiest players in the world. And me.

[amulet]

i have not read any of the other responses. however, of couse solid play wins. in general you have very bad players at pp. therfore, you have to expect bigger fluctuations, offset by a bigger long term win rate. sometimes you will have so many seeing the flop in a raised pot, that you have to adjust, and treat the 15/30 game like a low limit game.

[Lawrence Ng]

This was on Party last night.

Last night I 3-bet with A-J suited after a very laggy fish raised. Got cold called by a new player who just sat down.

Board is J-2-T-7-5 rainbow.

Mr. new player raises me on the flop, checks the turn after I check, and raises me on the river after I bet the river.

He shows J-2 offsuit.

I stayed on that table for 3 hours and wound up another 20 BB after.

Lawrence

[ToolMan]

Poker is a game of percentages. Just like the casino plays a small percentage. If, on average, you are starting with better hands than your opponents and you play them correctly for the pot odds being offered, you will be a winner in the long run. But as mentioned earlier, in percentages there will be variance. This is why you need an adequate bankroll for the level you are playing at. Good solid poker will win consistently at Party. I know from first hand experience. The best way to win is to watch your opponents. If their play is "incorrect", then you are at the right table. If not, the beauty of playing on line is it's very easy to change tables. Finding the right table is the most important thing you can do to improve your hourly rate.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Played at Party Poker last few days. Just cannot win. Raise my premium hands, flop decent, but have been runner-runner-rivered in every decent hand I've sat down with. Without exception I am flopping the best hand, and getting drawn out every single time.

Examples.

AQo button. Raise against the blinds. Both call. Flop comes AJT rainbow. I bet it out, they both call. Turn comes 7c (giving a club-flush draw now). I'm check-raised when I bet out my top pair good kicker, and figure the guy for slow-playing with KQ maybe. River is a T. He turns over T7s. Jesus.

I have 99 on the button. Raise it, get two/three callers. Flop comes J63 rainbow. I bet out, after it's checked around to me. Get two callers. Turn is nothing, and river is a K, which I check to figuring that if you called the flop, you have the J and I'm beat. He turns over K2s. One overcard chase on the flop and turn! Incredible.

Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here? I win most other places I play ring games, but seem to always struggle at Party which I understand has some of the worst players, next to Pacific.

[/ QUOTE ]


Awwwwww, You poor baby . /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[dutchgrl]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the site gives me a large rake rebate every month ( I usually make about 1300 bucks with this, extra money). I could set you up with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

ERROR!

[6471849653]

[ QUOTE ]
AQo button. Raise against the blinds. Both call. Flop comes AJT rainbow. I bet it out, they both call. Turn comes 7c (giving a club-flush draw now). I'm check-raised when I bet out my top pair good kicker, and figure the guy for slow-playing with KQ maybe. River is a T. He turns over T7s. Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pattern Mapper.

[ QUOTE ]
I have 99 on the button. Raise it, get two/three callers. Flop comes J63 rainbow. I bet out, after it's checked around to me. Get two callers. Turn is nothing, and river is a K, which I check to figuring that if you called the flop, you have the J and I'm beat. He turns over K2s. One overcard chase on the flop and turn! Incredible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pattern Mapper.

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone playing with solid play actually win here?

[/ QUOTE ]

They have double fluctuations as a fact, while what comes to loose games, I play them only full ring as big bet poker, just because I can't take the loose game fluctuations as limit form. Solid play faces that sometimes all the time even few hundreds of hours (one table), while sometimes one does not face it for few hundreds of hours but keeps scoring big time.

[Terminator]

Thanks for the (decent) responses. I am a solid player, and I think that the problem was that I'm so used to the play at other sites where I consistently win, that coming to somewhere reknowned for poor players and losing so continuously, and in some cases by literally incredible hands, was a bit of a culture shock for me initially.

After reading the comments above, I looked again and approached the game in a different way and am now winning. My problem was that I hadn't adjusted my game nearly enough for the conditions and that's why I was slowly bleeding to death.

Thanks again to those who posted something constructive.

[cov47]

Sometimes people forget that you don't always see the trash people were playing the 80% of the time they don't beat you with it. You remember the bad beats because they're the only time the other guy's awful hand selection is guaranteed to be visible.

Next time your AA holds up and you drag a huge pot, go into the hand history and look at how 3 people called you all the way down with K high or a pair of sixes. Then imagine what the 3 other people who folded on the river had. Trust me, when you move up limits, you'll miss having more of those idiots who will call with anything.

[Grisgra]

Ditto -- and in my last B&M session (I've only had three), straight flushes in *consecutive hands*.

B&Ms are rigged!

[JoeC]

This is not true. I win a lot at Party Poker. The key is to lay down all big pocket pairs(they only get outdrawn) and call multiple bets with nothing on the flop(runner-runner draws ALWAYS come).

[Lansing]

As usual, almost everyone who responds to this sort of post thinks they are obscenely clever and tries to cut down the original poster by disparaging his intelligence or play--usually both. And as usual, there is an element of truth in what the poster is saying that almost everyone overlooks in their haste to look cool by insulting him.

The fact is that solid play on Party magnifies your upswings and your downswings. It may or may not be a site that has an RNG that caters to fish, as some suggest. What it most definitely is, however, is a site where a great deal of chasing goes on.

When you are playing solid poker, you will hit streaks of winning on Party that are simply astounding, where you are routinely called down in large pots by people drawing to 2 outs (or dead) and missing. Yet because so many people on Party see the chasers win, you will hit streaks where you are routinely drawn out on time and time again. Solid poker magnifies this effect. Party is by nature a variance-magnifying site, and I fully understand the feeling of frustration from players who come to believe strong play doesn't win there. It certainly feels that way sometimes, though of course it is not true.

Good luck.

[dutchgrl]

Also, keep track of your stats. The "flop seen" percentage should stay under 20% in order to be successful in the long run.

[dutchgrl]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[MicroBob]

you are not allowed to offer rake-rebates or other affiliate deals on this site.

i notified the moderator of your post last night but it doesn't appear anything has come of it.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
The "flop seen" percentage should stay under 20% in order to be successful in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[JoeC]

It is ridiculous that a guy has a few losing days and blames it on the website. It is even more ridiculous that T7 outdrawing AQ on and AJT flop is considered some huge outdraw. And it's even more ridiculous that our friend was actually pissed off about this, rather than being happy he got called with T7 here.

I am actually all for providing productive and serious responses to legitimate problems. But come on, this guy is implying solid play loses at Party after just a few days??

Sir, I would suggest to you that I have every right to post a sarcastic response implying that this guy is an idiot that knows nothing about poker.

[Terminator]

[ QUOTE ]
It is even more ridiculous that T7 outdrawing AQ on and AJT flop is considered some huge outdraw. And it's even more ridiculous that our friend was actually pissed off about this, rather than being happy he got called with T7 here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it wasn't clear, but this is my overall experience at Party - not just based on a few days play. I frequently seem unable to win there with solid play. However, based on someone posting that it's a matter of time and the swings can be somewhat ridiculous, I appreciate that maybe I'm in the wrong game there (playing 2/4 Limit), or approaching it incorrectly. I already stated that I adjusted my play accordingly and started winning. That, to me at least, does not suggest in any way that I know nothing about poker. Neither do I consider myself to be an idiot or consider anyone who does not have the same level of experience in a certain field as I do to be an idiot.

I appreciate also that some people will call any two cards, no matter what the raise is and what they hold on the big blind.

Personally, I do feel that someone calling with T7s on an AJT flop IS ridiculous. Clearly it's a losing play over time. As is calling with it on the blind against a raise. Some people go to extraordinary lengths to protect their blinds and this is just one example. He had BOTTOM PAIR for god's sake!!! Against a pre-flop raiser!! Yes, I want these idiots to call with this junk, of course. What I don't want is them catching with on a runner runner like he did. But, I know this happens and is part of it - doesn't mean I have to like it.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. It's clear that no matter what type of question may be asked here, by whoever with any level of experience, they will be ridiculed at any opportunity by people with either too much time on their hands or by people who have nothing better to do than belittle their lesser man.

We were all fish once. You'd do well to remember that. Everyone would.

[StraitRazor]

Don't fool yourself. Calling with T7s here isn't as poor a play as you think. I wouldn't defend my SB with this hand, but this player chose to. You should be happy about that.

His flop play is correct, as it turns out. If he puts you on AK, AQ or a pair that did not hit a set (KK, QQ, 99) then he can call your bet on the flop getting 7-1 pot odds. (probably not fearing a re-raise from the BB) and he's 6-1 to improve. This is just better than even money. He hits the turn and has you nailed.

You misplayed this hand. Check the flop. You're giving up a bit. But if you don't want to see a show down, your bet on the turn has a better chance of taking the pot right there.

Alternatively, you should check the turn when the 7 falls. If he bets the river (and you call), you'll have saved 2 bets. Besides, when he calls the flop, is it impossible to believe he has any of these hands: 89, TT, JJ, AJ, AT JT?

I wore those same glasses for about a year. Take them off and work on your game, not that of others.

That's just my opinion.

[BSXX]

Nice response Lansing.

Informative, helpful, and mature. The last characteristic is rarely seen on this, otherwise, helpful and educational website.

I have come to believe that many members of this and other forums are much better at posting than playing. They regurgitate the same insults and "advice" they have read before and act like they actually know what they are talking about, but their complete lack of understanding of where these frustrated posters are coming from plainly proves they do not.

I wish I was ignorant enough to be as cool as they are. Life and poker would be so much easier.

[Michael Davis]

No it doesn't. You will have swings no matter what. If you play pisspoor your swings are going to be greater and they will fluctuate between winning a little a losing a lot. If you play well your swings will fluctuate between losing a little and winning a lot.

Playing solid will generally keep your swings lower than playing poorly. How do you think those routine chasers are faring, swing-wise?

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

Well, if you are a winning player, you play better than you post. Because here you are frequently supporting absurd claims that are factually incorrect and you seem to take any opportunity you can to attack the "posters" in general who are obviously wrong on whatever point they disagree with you on.

Look, if a huge percentage of regular posters here agree on an issue, it doesn't mean they're right, but there's a real good chance they are. Supporting the claim that solid play exacerbates swings shows a serious lack of understanding. So, as it is, I can only assume you play better than you post.

-Michael

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the site gives me a large rake rebate every month ( I usually make about 1300 bucks with this, extra money). I could set you up with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

ERROR!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I meant error as in I hope someone reports this and gets you banned. Hope I cleared that up. thanks.
Nope, and some people make way more than that

[/ QUOTE ]

[Michael Davis]

You have a ton of postflop flaws. You are way overaggressive and prone to tilt. Whining about your luck at the table is particularly unimpressive.

Get your crap out of here.

-Michael

[dutchgrl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "flop seen" percentage should stay under 20% in order to be successful in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because any higher than that and you are playing way too many hands. I am a winning player and know several others, all our percentages are lower than 20. I also know people whose are higher, and they are all losing. You have to play very tight online. This is obviously based on many hours of play, then take an average

[dutchgrl]

ok I didn't know, someone told me that they did it successfully. It will not happen again.

[bernie]

You do know it's not about winning pots, right? It's not who wins the most pots is the winner. Usually, it's just the opposite.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I do feel that someone calling with T7s on an AJT flop IS ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what. Realize where the money in the game comes from.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to play very tight online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Table texture depending.

b

[dutchgrl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to play very tight online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Table texture depending.

Very true, I was referring to a long term stategy of tight and agressive, with small adjustments to particular games
b

[/ QUOTE ]

[Michael Davis]

Calling T7s on the blind against a raise is often correct. It's automatically correct if the raise came from a late position or if there is more than one person in the pot.

Whether to call a bet on an AJT flop is dependent on the size of the pot, but certainly it is not always wrong.

-Michael

[Terminator]

Irrespective of my play, one thing is very troubling:

Why is it I win consistently with exactly the same play at places as loose as Pacific, but never seem to at Party where the play seems even looser?

Just seems I bleed to death at Party, playing tight aggressive. And this is not an observation of just a few days, and is not what would normally be interpreted as a swing (to just lose and lose without ever seeming to hit a profit margin is more consistent). The few times I do seem to encounter a win, I'm breaking even at best.

[mistrpug]

It's quite possible that either you're not as good as you think, or that you don't adjust your strategies for play in very loose games (basically SSH stategies). Do you have any PT stats? Know how many hands you've played?

There are plenty of people pn this forum who do very well on PArty with solid play, me included.

[Terminator]

Hi,

No, I don't have PokerTracker. But, I do consistently win at places like Pacific (where I've done exceptionally well) and Victor Chandler. I also win at Paradise (though mostly through SnG's there) and at Ultimate Bet, which is why it's all the more baffling why I can't win at Party. Hell, I've even won (came first, not just in the money) MTT's at Pokerstars!!

Is the consensus that I should loosen up more because the game is looser? I fear that this would just mean even bigger swings/losses and would open me up to even more bad beats - no matter what I seem to flop, or how far I'm ahead on the turn, I'm getting rivered what seems to be an inordinate amount. I even tried Pot Limit last night, as someone suggested you wouldn't get the chasers there because you can bet when you have the best of it and within about half an hour had trebled my stack. Lost it all to a flush drawer who called my all in against my trip Q's on the flop and caught. Of course, that happens but nowhere does it seem to happen as frequently as at Party.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I fear that this would just mean even bigger swings/losses and would open me up to even more bad beats

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't make plays based on fearing bad beats, you should make the most EV+ play.

Anyway, I recommend that you download pokertracker and at least use the evaluation period where you can import up to 1000 hands. This will at least give you an idea of your preflop play (1000 hands isn't enough to give you a reasonable estimate of anything except maybe VP$IP and PFR, but it's a start).

Also, be aware that since Party players are so bad, that it is more likely that you will be outdrawn there than at other sites against better players. However, since they're always chasing you down, you should make more money on the long run.

It will help if you post hands you had trouble with in the appropriate forum and get feedback. You may not be protecting your hands and therofore giving other players the proper odds to chase you down.

Trust me on this though: Solid play does win at Party just like at any other site. I'll be glad to send you my PT stats if you want and you can see that as an example. Just PM me.

[Terminator]

Thanks... I tried the PT thing, but to be honest it was just a horde of numbers to me (it's not very intuitive to use, or very clear to me on how to use the data it's showing me - no guidelines as to what to put in to rate players etc. though I have found something in the More Detail section which may help me)

It said I I actually won $329!!. Which is most definately wrong. I tried reading the online help, but it's still looking fairly baffling.

Will play with it some more and see how I get on. At least it may tell me about my play at Party. I hope.

[TonyBlair]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is that solid play on Party magnifies your upswings and your downswings.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Phix]

I too have had a hard time with the loose play at the Party website. I have found that more solid play is found on the site in the morning EST, when most of the Europeans are playing.

Hope this helps
Phix

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I have found that more solid play is found on the site in the morning EST, when most of the Europeans are playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you realize that you should want to play when worse players are playing, not when solid players are playing.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the consensus that I should loosen up more because the game is looser?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. I'd wait til you figure out why your not winning playing tighter hands. You should still win, though maybe not as much. Figure out whether it's just a bad run, or if there's a hole in your game when playing this texture. Add hands only after you figure this out. Adding hands before won't help you.

BTW...Many players used to playing a tighter/tougher game (UB, for instance) have trouble playing a loose game. Start reviewing from your starting hands, which should be brief. I have a feeling alot of it is in postflop play.

b

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "flop seen" percentage should stay under 20% in order to be successful in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because any higher than that and you are playing way too many hands. I am a winning player and know several others, all our percentages are lower than 20. I also know people whose are higher, and they are all losing. You have to play very tight online. This is obviously based on many hours of play, then take an average

[/ QUOTE ]
I know people whore are higher that aren't losing. "flop seen" percentage include the times you get to see the flop for free in the BB, and I know players who has a VPIP over 20 % (on limits up to 15/30 at Party) and who is making a lot of money online. So no, the "flop seen" should not stay below 20 % to make sure you're succesful in the long run.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem was that I hadn't adjusted my game nearly enough for the conditions and that's why I was slowly bleeding to death.

[/ QUOTE ]

BS. You're just, a) not as good as you think you are and b) not very aware of variance and EV.

[Terminator]

I win at every other site I play at, so it's hardly BS. I understand both variance and EV.

There could be a number of factors as to why. On checking some stats, I could be seeing too many flops, playing just a little too loose, or even too tight (heaven forbid). I need to examine the tables I chose where those losses occurred in more detail to fully understand why, and only at Party, these losses occur. It could simply be bad luck. But without examining the stats in significant detail, I'm not going to know.

But thanks for the constructive criticism.

[Terminator]

Further to this, I've done some examination of my play using PokerTracker. I've not used PokerTracker extensively before, so if I'm reading the results wrong I hope someone can find the good grace to tell me how to read it correctly rather than just say "you're reading it wrong, you don't know anything... etc." I'd particularly like some help in getting some guidelines for rules for players to be rated.

Interestingly, it says I saw the flop 34%. I know this is high, and I can only think that a couple of known leaks I have to my game (which I don't recall being too affecting in the number of bad beats I suffered) might have contributed to this. The leaks I have are very easy to get away from on the flop. Namely smaller pocket pairs. I only call a single bet on them in late position and if I don't hit a set, and even then only if I feel it's a good set based on the flop, I'm outta there.

I won $ when I saw the flop 27%. This strikes me as a good result, especially coupled with the BB per 100 hands of 13.6 and a win rate of $45 per 100 hands. This is on the 2/4 Ring Limit games.

I went to showdown 31% of times, and won at showdown 48%.

One of the most surprising stats to come out of this was that my aggression factor during these games was low. Much lower than I expected it to be. I'm tight, but when I have the goods I get my money in there, so it's very curious to have a low aggression rating. I rarely slow play at all.

Would there be any other specific information I should look at? I'm still at a loss for why I lost particularly, but am willing to face up to why. Just saying "you're no good etc." isn't enough for me when I win with the same play elsewhere.

[Tosh]

How many hands do you have at all the other sites you mention?

As far as I am concerned if you really understood all of what you're being told this post would never have materialised in the first place.

[Michael Davis]

"As far as I am concerned if you really understood all of what you're being told this post would never have materialised in the first place."

Ding!

-Michael

[Terminator]

Tens of thousands.

[mistrpug]

You know what? This is getting old. If we just admit that you're right, will you stop just stop playing on Party and drop it? I'm ready to make that trade.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what? This is getting old. If we just admit that you're right, will you stop just stop playing on Party and drop it? I'm ready to make that trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP plays almost 35% of his hands, and thinks his biggest leak is playing small PP for one bet in late position against many opponents. You want him to leave Party?

Oh wait, I get it - you must play at one of the other sites he plays at, and you want him back /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[harboral]

Over a third of all flops you are in there? Come-on-a-my-house, I'm-a-gonna-give-a-you-candy.

[BSXX]

I never "attack" posters with whom I disagree. I may disagree with them, but it goes no further than that. I only "attack" the juveniles on this board who make statements such as: “Sir, I would suggest to you that I have every right to post a sarcastic response implying that this guy is an idiot that knows nothing about poker.” And this is mild compared to other posts I have read on other threads.

Ironically, this particular thread was not nearly as bad as others I have seen. I have seen too many times when people start a thread seeking help on an issue or trying to ignite honest debate, which is the purpose of this forum, only to find themselves being lambasted by some of the members on this board. And by the tone and content of some of these juvenile responses, it is obvious they have no real understanding of the topic at hand. They issue a harshly worded and condescending response that is not particularly intelligent or helpful. Lansing made a good point and I agreed with him.

Fortunately, this forum consists of some extremely knowledgeable and helpful individuals (yes, this may qualify for understatement of the year) who take the time to prepare and submit thoughtful and helpful responses. I am willing to take the good with the bad, but I will also condemn childish and/or rude behavior on this forum even if it means I get a little lambasting of my own.

I too get a little tired of the same old posts time after time, and I am not against a little humor, the "pattern mapper" response is a classic, but I suspect you know exactly what I am talking about regarding the harshness and oftentimes the personal attacks that accompany some of the responses. If you simply refuse to acknowledge this, then we simply don't agree, but I will not personally insult you. If, however, some newbie makes a post requesting help on a topic that we have all seen and debated a million times, and some know-it-all wiseguy posts a response insulting his person or his intelligence, then I may very well call him down.

I honestly don't know what "absurd claims" I am allegedly supporting. You'll have to be more specific. Further, I rarely find myself in disagreement with the majority on this forum. This is the best poker forum in existence, that is not debateable, if it weren't, I wouldn't bother to try pointing out some of the silly behavior that I wish did not occur.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I wouldn't call checking the turn in the 2nd hand solid play.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
The OP plays almost 35% of his hands, and thinks his biggest leak is playing small PP for one bet in late position against many opponents. You want him to leave Party?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I want him to shutup. Him leaving Party to do it is a trade I'm willing to make.

[James282]

OK I had managed to avoid this thread for a while because of it's obvious stupid title but just prayed it would go away. Since it's late and I'm bored I read it. I'm pretty pleased with myself that I did because I got to read this paragraph:

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, it says I saw the flop 34%. I know this is high, and I can only think that a couple of known leaks I have to my game (which I don't recall being too affecting in the number of bad beats I suffered) might have contributed to this. The leaks I have are very easy to get away from on the flop. Namely smaller pocket pairs. I only call a single bet on them in late position and if I don't hit a set, and even then only if I feel it's a good set based on the flop, I'm outta there.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most contradictory and bizarre pargaphs I've ever read on this forum.

Friend, here's some advice: playing PP's in late position for one bet isn't quite as bad as playing QTo and K4s from any position or whatever other miscellaneous trash you rationalize playing to get your VPIP up to 34%. And PS, never fold a set on the flop in limit hold 'em, ever. It will save you the headache of trying to figure out which flops you "like" and "dislike."
-James

[Terminator]

I didn't check the turn in the 2nd hand. I checked the river when there were two overcards to my pocket pair.

Thank you BSXX... this is my first ever posting here and it's good to know there are some out there willing to take the time to offer help, rather than some of the responses which are neither helpful or intelligent. I truly hope that some of those people are never in a position of wanting help or advice on what, to others, may be a foolish or obvious question.

It's disappointing that someone asking for help, no matter what the topic/level of understanding of the poster may be, is subjected to some of the replies I've experienced here. I came here because I heard this was the best forum. So far, I'm not impressed. Even those that appeared initially to be wanting to help have now seemingly resorted to belittling my original subject, or subsequent expansions.

For the record, I'm not in a third of all flops, just the sample of what I loaded into Poker Tracker based on a few days' play. Maybe 729 hands is not a big enough sample and that's why the 34% flop is high. I would never play K4s from any position other than the button and only then in certain circumstances. QTo is pretty much the same, but it depends on the table profile.

And I may well fold a set of 2's on the flop - it depends on the betting ahead of me and what other two cards are there. It's all about circumstance.

I've already stopped playing at Party. Something is clearly wrong in my approach there but it's unlikely I'm going to find out why for sure without expending a lot of money to see why, or finding someone that has gone through exactly what I've gone through here. That was the point of my original post.

I've returned to Pacific and already made back most of what I lost at Party. That cannot be a fluke. Maybe it's table selection, maybe it's something else, but I'm not really any closer to the answer to why I cannot win at Party.

I thank all those that took the time to post constructive criticism or offer advice. If someone has any guidelines for entries in the rules to rate players in Poker Tracker, I'd appreciate this especially as I'm not used to using PT.

Sincerely...

[jimymat]

Its hard to keep playing in a game where your constantly drawn out on. Everyone knows that. What makes a good player is one that can work through the down swings and badbeats. You can not lose your head and start easing up on your starting hands. Ive gone on losing streaks for monthes where I am drawn out on by 1 2 and 3 outers. It happens.When playing online there are no tells to help you. You need to start taking notes on players and use them. If some retard draws out on you with 2 outs left getting 2-1 pot odds, put a note on him.
I am a consistent winner in the B&M but struggle a lot when online. One thing that has helped me is to not extend my bankroll or do not move up in limits to fast. If your depositing $50 a time then your playing scared poker. You will have a lot of trouble making the right decision when your down to your last $20. You do not want your bankroll to be a factor when your lookin at calling a bet or putting a guy all in. I play a style and limit where Im comfortable so if I go all in and lose to a crappy draw I really dont care. Check the online calculators that are offered for free around the web. Your big pocket pairs are crap against 4 or more players preflop. You counter this with notes and playing more drawing hands your self. Suited connectors are great multi way hands with this many callers preflop. So are A-x suited but dont go crazy. Also get position on these morons. Only play these multiway hands in late position with a lot of callers. You should fold 6-7 suited on the button with only one caller ahead of you. Screw these small pots, let the idiots fight over them. You want to get the reputation that if your in a hand they better be on there toes.
Understand that online poker is a drawing game because of the bad players. You want to make your hand on the flop and jam the pot, let them chase you down. If your drawing your self make sure you have the correct odds to do so and try to make sure your drawing to the nuts. For more on pot odds see Lee Jones, WInning at low limit holdem.
good luck

[underthegun662]

play breakeven poker on 8 tables and just collect the rake rebate. play big cards and pocket pairs. lol

[pistol78]

AQo button. Raise against the blinds. Both call. Flop comes AJT rainbow. I bet it out, they both call. Turn comes 7c (giving a club-flush draw now). I'm check-raised when I bet out my top pair good kicker, and figure the guy for slow-playing with KQ maybe. River is a T . He turns over T7s. Jesus.

No shame in folding.

[Terminator]

Thanks jimymat. That's an excellent response. I'll see how that works out. I know about odds, and only ever draw when I have them. I also take a lot of notes on players but at Party I frequently find I don't see many of those players again due to the numbers there. But I take the notes anyway, just in case I bump into them again.

Thanks again.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't check the turn in the 2nd hand. I checked the river when there were two overcards to my pocket pair.

Thank you BSXX... this is my first ever posting here and it's good to know there are some out there willing to take the time to offer help, rather than some of the responses which are neither helpful or intelligent. I truly hope that some of those people are never in a position of wanting help or advice on what, to others, may be a foolish or obvious question.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know what? You've gotten good advice from several long-time posters, all of whom are proven winners (800Gambler, Microbob, bernie, Tosh, James282, and others), yet you continue to whine and complain about how you are being "insulted". Why shoud anyone continue to try to help you? Don't you realize there are posts like this every day - someone new comes on and complains about:

No one can beat the fish.
Low limit games can't be beat.
I need to move up to play against better players so I can win.
The site is rigged.
Solid play doesn't win.
I win against my buddies but can't win online.
I win in casinos/cardrooms but can't win online.
There are too many suckouts.
There are too many "juiced flops".
My good hands don't hold up.
My draws never hit.

etc, etc, etc.

Every single time it turns out the new poster is wrong. They aren't really a winning player, they don't truly understand the variance involved in this game, or any of a hundred other reasons make them wrong.

Someone who has played 729 hands and is seeing the flop 34% of the time is either:

A - an excellent player playing very low limit games
B - a player who has gone on a long streak of excellent starting cards
C - Someone playing very shorthanded games
D - a player who plays too many hands

By your own admission, you are not A. You haven't told us what games you play, but I doubt you're C either. You may be B, but without any evidence of what types of hands you're getting, we can't tell.

By far the most likely situation is you're D.

Here's what I'd like you to do.

1 - Open PokerTracker.
2 - Click on the icon for Ring Game Statistics (it's the little ring icon)
3 - Click on the Preferences tab (it's the last one on the right)
4 - Make sure the Session Dates is set to ALL DATES, and make sure no other boxes are checked.
5 - Click on the General Info tab (the first tab on the left)
6 - Click the button at the top left that says "My Stats" (this will show all the stats for all your hands in PT)

Near the bottom of the screen, PT will show you every hand you've had (in order from AA down to 32o), and the stats for those hands.

7- Look at the first column, labeled Times (it's the total number of hands). Is the bottom number 729? If not, what is it?

8 - Look for a column labeled CCPF. What is the number at the bottom of the column?

9 - Click on the column labeled CCPF. It will resort your data, so any hand that has a value in the CCPF field will be listed at the top. Make a list of every hand that has something other than a 0 in the CCPF field. What hands are they?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't check the turn in the 2nd hand. I checked the river when there were two overcards to my pocket pair.

Thank you BSXX... this is my first ever posting here and it's good to know there are some out there willing to take the time to offer help, rather than some of the responses which are neither helpful or intelligent. I truly hope that some of those people are never in a position of wanting help or advice on what, to others, may be a foolish or obvious question.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know what? You've gotten good advice from several long-time posters, all of whom are proven winners (800Gambler, Microbob, bernie, Tosh, James282, and others), yet you continue to whine and complain about how you are being "insulted". Why shoud anyone continue to try to help you? Don't you realize there are posts like this every day - someone new comes on and complains about:

No one can beat the fish.
Low limit games can't be beat.
I need to move up to play against better players so I can win.
The site is rigged.
Solid play doesn't win.
I win against my buddies but can't win online.
I win in casinos/cardrooms but can't win online.
There are too many suckouts.
There are too many "juiced flops".
My good hands don't hold up.
My draws never hit.

etc, etc, etc.

Every single time it turns out the new poster is wrong. They aren't really a winning player, they don't truly understand the variance involved in this game, or any of a hundred other reasons make them wrong.

Someone who has played 729 hands and is seeing the flop 34% of the time is either:

A - an excellent player playing very low limit games
B - a player who has gone on a long streak of excellent starting cards
C - Someone playing very shorthanded games
D - a player who plays too many hands

By your own admission, you are not A. You haven't told us what games you play, but I doubt you're C either. You may be B, but without any evidence of what types of hands you're getting, we can't tell.

By far the most likely situation is you're D.

Here's what I'd like you to do.

1 - Open PokerTracker.
2 - Click on the icon for Ring Game Statistics (it's the little ring icon)
3 - Click on the Preferences tab (it's the last one on the right)
4 - Make sure the Session Dates is set to ALL DATES, and make sure no other boxes are checked.
5 - Click on the General Info tab (the first tab on the left)
6 - Click the button at the top left that says "My Stats" (this will show all the stats for all your hands in PT)

Near the bottom of the screen, PT will show you every hand you've had (in order from AA down to 32o), and the stats for those hands.

7- Look at the first column, labeled Times (it's the total number of hands). Is the bottom number 729? If not, what is it?

8 - Look for a column labeled CCPF. What is the number at the bottom of the column?

9 - Click on the column labeled CCPF. It will resort your data, so any hand that has a value in the CCPF field will be listed at the top. Make a list of every hand that has something other than a 0 in the CCPF field. What hands are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post Jeff. He should be singing your name in the streets for a post like this, but he'll no doubt find it patronizing.
-James

[Blarg]

I like this response.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you have at all the other sites you mention?

As far as I am concerned if you really understood all of what you're being told this post would never have materialised in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah not worth it.

[Tosh]

Thanks, I hope my arrogance doesn't chase you off the site. You have fast become one of my favourite posters.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I hope my arrogance doesn't chase you off the site. You have fast become one of my favourite posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great.

[Tosh]

Can you answer me my question as to your Party poker name though please?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "flop seen" percentage should stay under 20% in order to be successful in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because any higher than that and you are playing way too many hands. I am a winning player and know several others, all our percentages are lower than 20. I also know people whose are higher, and they are all losing. You have to play very tight online. This is obviously based on many hours of play, then take an average

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine is much higher than 20%. Do I have to give all the money I won back?

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine is much higher than 20%. Do I have to give all the money I won back?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fraid so, sorry man but you clearly can't be a winner with that VP$IP, there must have been an error.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you BSXX... this is my first ever posting here and it's good to know there are some out there willing to take the time to offer help, rather than some of the responses which are neither helpful or intelligent. I truly hope that some of those people are never in a position of wanting help or advice on what, to others, may be a foolish or obvious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is a tough game. Consider those responses tough love. They really do have your best interests at heart.

[Pennmaster]

It took me a while to get the hang of Party Poker, but once I did I have been consistently winning. Not a lot, mind you, as I only play the NL 25 games, but I have won 500 over the past six weeks. My advice would be to keep playing correctly and eventually you will win. I play premium hands and make players pay a big price to draw against me. They do sometimes and sometimes they win, but the times they loose (and I truelly believe that the odds are in your favor) they loose enough back to me to compensate for the bad beats. Especially when you make the monsters because inevitably you get callers who are even drawing dead, or guys who are trying to make WSOP moves and get trapped by real hands. Hope this helps.

[phixxx]

My little brother got a hold of my twoplustwo account and made a thread similar to this one using my account a while back. I slapped him good.

[Terminator]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what? You've gotten good advice from several long-time posters, all of whom are proven winners (800Gambler, Microbob, bernie, Tosh, James282, and others), yet you continue to whine and complain about how you are being "insulted". Why shoud anyone continue to try to help you? Don't you realize there are posts like this every day - someone new comes on and complains about:


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, let's imagine the scenario... a person who's a winning player everywhere but one site but has never joined a poker forum before comes here.

They post their query and get several helpful responses that they take on board. In amongst those responses are several insulting remarks. The poster doesn't KNOW these are PROVEN winners. The poster doesn't know that this is one of many repeated threads.

You know, not everyone is as experienced as everyone else. Not everyone knows as much as you do or claim to. It's very easy to criticise someone based on one single post. As it happens, I AM a winning player. Consistently. Everywhere but Party. I made 4K playing at Pacific in just the last few months. I know about swings, I know about variance, but I can't seem to apply any of this at Party and I wanted to ask those more experienced than myself why this could be. I got some help, which I will use next time I go there. What I didn't expect to get were childish and unhelpful comments. Maybe I was too naive. But I don't get this at non-poker forums I frequent.

I only have PokerTracker stats for 729 hands. Someone else already mentioned that this is not nearly enough to make an accurate analysis but I've taken the advice and information they've suggested on board.

So how about cutting a newbie poster some slack?

We were all fish once.

[pudley4]

Why don't you just do what I asked? It will take less than 5 minutes.

PS - The long-term winners who I named all gave you good advice. I never said they insutled you and/or you should just take it.

[MicroBob]

note: I have not read all the posts in this thread.


[ QUOTE ]
I only have PokerTracker stats for 729 hands. Someone else already mentioned that this is not nearly enough to make an accurate analysis but I've taken the advice and information they've suggested on board.


[/ QUOTE ]


729 hands is NOT enough to make a determination as to whether your win-rate is accurate (not even close as was previously mentioned).
But it is enough to know that playing 34% of your hands is WAY too many for most tight-aggressive winning-players (this is assuming you are playing full-ring with 9-10 players at the table).

You see...700 hands is an insufficient sample for some stats....but it is a reasonable sample for other stats.
there are exceptions where some exceptional players could play 34% of their hands I'm sure....but there aren't very many of them. I feel confident in saying that you are DEFINITELY playing too many hands based on the info that you've given.

The fact that you've won on the other sites is not entirely relevant either since we don't know how much you've won or over how many hands you have been winning.

It seems very likely that if you have been playing this many hands on the other sites then the variance from your previous hot-streak is simply catching up to you as you play on the party-tables.


If you're playing A9o or KTo from early position....or cold-calling a raise with KJo....or calling a raise and re-raise with AJo....then you are playing TOO many hands.
(these are just some examples....at 34% there has to be SOME way of identifying where you are too loose pre-flop).


I also don't know of any situation in limit-poker where I would fold a set of 2's on the flop.

Even if it was capped PF 5 ways and the flop came AK2-suited or something I could always be either ahead or have enough outs to make it worth staying.

Anyway, I guess I would need to see the hand....but in limit-poker I'm just not able to easily imagine a scenario where folding a set of 2's on the flop would be anything but weak-tight.



I don't know if you will take some of the advice given here and attempt to improve your game (via the hand-history threads in the ML and SS forums) or not.
But I still feel it's worthwhile to point-out the flaws in some of the arguments you are making because another newbie reading this thread may get some value out of it.


I agree with some of the others that you should strongly consider listening to some fo the advice given here.
But even if you don't I suspect this thread will be helpful to SOMEONE out there and that knowledge does actually give me a certain amount of satisfaction.