river play against 2+2er

[chezlaw]

Playing against a 2+2er at pokerstars 2/4 6 max. He is a frequent poster on this board who knows me from here as well as a close HU match some time ago which he won /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I think my river bet is good against typical players but horrible here. What do you reckon?

I open raise UTG+1 with KQo
folded to 2+2er who calls from the BB

FLOP A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2+2er check calls

TURN 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2+2er check calls

RIVER 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2+2er checks, I bet??

chez

[Scotch78]

That's a tough one. If this person knows your play well, I'd be very tempted to check behind. If he does have a hand worth taking to the showdown, it's very likely you're behind, and he's not going to make the mistake of calling with a hand he shouldn't (or folding any ace).

Scott

[naphand]

It seems that only "Stats" posts are getting kind of response at the moment. Maybe we need the current crop of newer posters to get over the excitement of PT and get back to thinking through tough hands that are not "PP with an overcard", or "overcards multiway", and discussing why certain plays are better. Maybe I am getting nostalgic...

If your opponent is on a draw he missed, except the unlikely T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, so is either folding to your bet or raising you. He knows your PF raises are meaningful, so is unlikely to call down with a weaker Q like QJ or QT as it is just too likely you have him beaten. So you are looking at most likely Q9 (and River raise) or KQ, or a weak A. He is pretty much folding every hand you beat, and calling you with some that are better, or splitting. If he knows you will bet with less that TP, he clearly does not fold any A.

[kiddo]

If I checkcalled both flop, turn and river I most likely would have a not to good pair, well aware that our Hero is a bit 2 aggressive and will almost always bet both flop and turn no matter what. When our Hero bets river 2 I would sigh and call.

A good player slowplaying a monster HU out of position on all streets? Cant imagine its EV+ against anyone.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
He knows your PF raises are meaningful, so is unlikely to call down with a weaker Q like QJ or QT as it is just too likely you have him beaten. So you are looking at most likely Q9 (and River raise) or KQ, or a weak A. He is pretty much folding every hand you beat, and calling you with some that are better, or splitting. If he knows you will bet with less that TP, he clearly does not fold any A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would villain have bet the river with an ace, fearing a check behind by a hand like, for example, KQ? As hero, I would probably have checked regardless for exactly the reasons you mention, but suspect that there is a decent chance hero's hand is good.

[Jeff W]

I think this is a good spot to check behind. Villain would likely bet the river if he had a pair of aces, but it's still unlikely that the hero is ahead often enough for a bet on the river to be for value.

[chezlaw]

All that check calling with QJ or worse seems unlikely, 2+2ers don't do that do they? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I also reckon a draw is pretty unlikely, if he had the flush draw then a semi-bluff representing an ace is kinda tempting.

So, the only ways I get called and win are:
he was on a draw, caught a pair and called (very unlikely)
he has QJ or worse and is calling me down (fairly unlikely)

I get called and lose when he has an ace which is not only likey but so likely I could taste it before I saw his cards. He might have bet the river with an ace but then again he might hope that I continue a bluff on the river.

Unfortunately my fingers work faster than my brain at that time of day. He called with A3, I said 'ug' and he smiled to himself and said nothing.


chez

[naphand]

I think my line here should have been check-call, check-call, bet. Against a reasonable or better player playing a non-Ace hand, they will certainly check behind the River more often than bet it. This has been discussed plenty on the forum.

Not sure why I checked the River again, but I rarely play a hand this way except against a aggro bluffer who I can expect to bet the River. Decent, thinking players are rare at $2/$4, and my past games against you should have woken me up to the fact that the River was likely checked behind except by a better A. You are not raising that River too often with just AK? I realised the check was wrong when I made it, but did indeed smile to myself when you bet and showed.

I think we played about 4 hands to showdown against each other, all of which I played slightly differently. You took the standard line of CR the Turn with AA against my flopped top pair (which I believe I should have called then folded the River), and that was probably the biggest pot between us. I was testing you out a bit, and although I don't think my plays were max EV, I did get a bunch of useful information. PT still has you with the little rock icon... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
You are not raising that River too often with just AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know if I'm against a decent player and the action on this type of board goes them check/calling the flop and turn then betting out on the river I am raising with AK instantly since ace-rag is far and away the most common hand for this line... which would mean it is very good for you to bet out if you hit two pair on the river or even to slowplay a stronger hand and make it look like a weak ace.

[chezlaw]

Never say never, I have a few diffent modes of play and make silly mistakes which helps to keep the hand readers guessing /images/graemlins/smile.gif The way I was playing on Saturday I'm sure I wouldn't have raised. After this thread and schneids post, I suspect a raise is more likely.

Saturday was a bit of a struggle but it's fun and instructive to play against you. I may see you soon.

and you should always fold when I check-raise the turn /images/graemlins/wink.gif

chez

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are not raising that River too often with just AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know if I'm against a decent player and the action on this type of board goes them check/calling the flop and turn then betting out on the river I am raising with AK instantly since ace-rag is far and away the most common hand for this line... which would mean it is very good for you to bet out if you hit two pair on the river or even to slowplay a stronger hand and make it look like a weak ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Schneids - great post. I was going to write the same exact thing pretty much and won a lot of bets in my 10-20 career making raises like this on the river.
-James

[naphand]

Not when the pot lays 10:1 and I have 5 outs against your overpair... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif