QQ with overcards at a wild table [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Nick C

11-22-2004, 08:08 AM

This QQ hand is from a Party 2/4 table I joined because of its average pot size, and, while I suspected the player to my immediate right was a TAG, my overall impression was that, basically, the whole table was on tilt. (Well, that may be overstating matters, but it did seem like a LAG table to me.)

For context, here's a hand that took place during my first orbit:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, UTG 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (22.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 25.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Qh 5s (two pair, queens and sixes).
Hero has Ac Kc (two pair, kings and sixes).
Button has 5c Kd (two pair, kings and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 25.50 BB. 

About an orbit later, I was dealt QQ, which made me happy at first, though that quickly changed.

Neither of what turned out to be my primary opponents in this hand saw the flop in the previous one, and I had more of an overall impression of the table than individual reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 13 BB

I don't know how I should have handled the hand postflop. What do you think?

(By the way, feel free to discuss the hand I provided for context as well, if you see problems.)

runa

11-22-2004, 01:43 PM

Hand 1:
I'd probably cap the flop, everything else seems standard.
EDIT: If you had capped and then were led into again on the turn, I might then choose to call the turn, then possibly raise the river as KQ might limp in here.

Hand 2:
What was your thinking behind the flop raise? If you thought you were ahead you should probably go ahead and lead the turn, that way the two flush draws don't see the river for free. If you are raised and suspect you're behind, you have 2-outs and no other backdoor prospects so I'd then fold the turn.

Nick C

11-22-2004, 06:24 PM

I know it doesn't really show from the action in the hand, but prior to the QQ hand I had seen a lot of heavy preflop and flop betting during my short time at the table. And I hadn't really been able to distinguish much yet between the individual players. My read was basically that I was at a LAG table.

I didn't like the flop (especially with 6 opponents), but thought there was still some small chance I was ahead, even after I was bet into. (In the earlier AKs hand, after all, I did get bet into and then 3-bet by 2nd pair, 5 kicker, although admittedly by a different opponent.) The bet could, for instance, indicate a flush draw, and no one behind me had to have a king. I also thought that, if I just called, it would likely get raised behind me, and, especially since I'd shown weakness, the raiser wouldn't necessarily need top pair (or better) or a flush draw to make this raise. And if I called instead and it got raised behind me and it came back one to me, I'd call again because I wouldn't be fully convinced I was beat, and by this point, depending on the number of players in, I might have the odds to chase my set (although the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif might just leave me still drawing against someone's turned flush). So I raised in an effort to drive out any unpaired ace hands if I was ahead (or at least make people pay to draw) and also in an effort to slow my opponents down. I also was kind of hoping to get heads-up against the flop bettor, although I thought that outcome was unlikely.

I might have bet again when checked to on the turn if the turn card hadn't been an ace, but once the action got to me, I decided that I was being too optimistic and in fact it was very likely I was drawing, and it was a longshot draw at that, so I checked in the hopes the Button would check behind (though I didn't expect him to). But I didn't trust the Button's bet when it came, and MP1 just called, and suddenly I became a little more optimistic again. So I called too, thinking maybe I would be ahead often enough to justify the call.

Postflop, the whole hand made me uncomfortable, and I wasn't really sure what I was doing. But what I just described was some of my thinking at the time.

MoreWineII

11-22-2004, 06:35 PM

Hand 1 is yummy. Hand 2, I prefer to lead the turn, fold to a raise given that you raised the flop. Since you checked and someone bet and someone else called, I'd almost feel safe folding QQ there. Then again, if you feel you're up against LAGs...

All the more reason to bet/fold to a raise. At least then you feel less disgusted by folding.

Nick C

11-22-2004, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, I prefer to lead the turn, fold to a raise given that you raised the flop. Since you checked and someone bet and someone else called, I'd almost feel safe folding QQ there. Then again, if you feel you're up against LAGs...

All the more reason to bet/fold to a raise. At least then you feel less disgusted by folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd feel better about the QQ hand if I'd followed your plan for the turn. After all, it wasn't as if I thought there was really much chance of getting to the showdown for free. The biggest advantage of checking the turn that I can think of is that if (what I felt would be) Button's inevitable turn bet got checkraised by the flop bettor, I could then fold without investing any money on the turn.

But at the time I was just hoping in vain to get to the river for free and see a showdown for just one more BB. I guess in the end I did get to a showdown for that price, but I didn't like playing the hand the way I did.

I'm curious: Does anyone fold to the flop bet? (I considered it, but I thought I'd be too disgusted after the hand if I saw a showdown and no one had a king.)

MoreWineII

11-22-2004, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious: Does anyone fold to the flop bet? (I considered it, but I thought I'd be too disgusted after the hand if I saw a showdown and no one had a king.)

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I think it's too early to give up to that bet. That bet could be a flush draw, a middle pair, anything really.

I wouldn't like giving up on the turn either, but soooooooooooo many online players fall in love with an ace. I just think it's almost a lock you're behind there when somebody bets. On top of that, your two queen 'outs' are filthy.

Nick C

11-23-2004, 04:17 AM

No big surprises here.

Button had Q /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif
MP1 showed K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif and took the pot.

The table calmed down (from what I described earlier) shortly thereafter, and I suspect in retrospect that much of the maniacal behavior I thought I'd detected at first was in fact just the way the table was responding to the player who was MP1 in the first hand.

Thanks for the responses.

me454555

11-23-2004, 04:28 AM

Lets analyze the situation. You raised pf. The flop came with an overcard and someone in mp bets into you with a ton of people left to act. Do you think they are bluffing and betting overcards? Do you think you're in the lead? Probobly not. You're up against a ton of opponents and one of them is likely to have a K. You're queens are only good for set value now.

You've got 6 people left to act behind you. Figure 3 or 4 people will call if you call along too. This makes calling the right play b/c you're getting aproximately 17 or 18:1 and you can probobly make up 4 sbs if you hit your Q on the turn.

Raising is definatly the wrong play b/c 1) You're most likely behind and drawing slim and 2) You want to keep as many people in the pot to pay you off if you hit you're hand.

KePoZ

11-23-2004, 04:31 AM

i wouldn't lead the turn on the Ace, if you were ahead (which is very unlikely) u can still get flushed out at river, and if u were behind ur Queen of spade might not save u.. i would check and fold turn..

KePoZ

11-23-2004, 04:34 AM

good point, with six players in raising isn't gonna get u a free card on turn.. and u don't hold the Queen of spade

me454555

11-23-2004, 12:19 PM

The more I think about this hand, the more I feel folding the flop may be the correct move. W/so many people in the pot, theres a good chance someones got either a K, A or flushdraw. That means that you're either way behind or slightly ahead a good majority of the time. Since the call was based on the assumption that you had 2 clean outs, I don't know if 18:1 is going to be enough considering the Qs could be tainted b/c it could give someone a flush.