TOC Demise -- Good or Bad?

Apparently the Tournament of Champions is now history. In my opinion I think that this is very good news. The reason I feel this way is that the entry fee had gotten too high and if the tournament was to continue it would set a terrible precedent (in my opinion).


Now I do want to state that the high entry fee was not price gouging in the sense that I understand the promoters were losing money. But nevertheless high tournament fees, like high rakes in regular games, do have the potential to limit the growth of poker. I hope that other tournament operators look at this and think twice about raising their fees, and perhaps even scale some back. Are you listening WSOP?


All comments are welcome.

actually, casinos look at these tournies to make money..one way or another...not promote poker...it occurred to me that the most significant event on my recent 4 day trip to tunica was that i did not play table games bj, craps, and this is very unusual, and i think casino operators, and perhaps cardrooms, are shortsighted as there is tremendous action generally where a big tourny is going..jmho..gl

On behalf of recreational, but serious, tournament poker players I think the TOC will be greatly missed. That type of tournament was one of a kind and I feel the entry fee, though high, was acceptable. I don't think the TOC was in danger of setting an unfavorable precedent, because the event was unique.


The WSOP, however, is a different story. The entry fees are too high, and the WSOP definitely sets the precedent with regard to how major tournaments should be run. If they don't reduce, or at the very least freeze the entry fees, it could be very bad for the game and tournament entries will begin to fall rapidly.


My solution to the problem is this: reduce the entry fees at the WSOP to a more reasonable amount (like $50 for the $1500 events) and make up for the difference by taking more off the top from the supersatellites. The overwhelming majority of supersatellite players are just trying to get a paid seat. They aren't trying to eake out a living playing supers. So I think the tournament community would be willing to take a hit in the form of a large vig from the supers in exchange for more reasonable entry fees in the main events.


Craig H

I deal at the Mohegan Sun. All during Foxwoods WPF, we were much busier than normal, so I know WE made more money. Foxwoods had huge success this year, especialy from the increased side action. There was a plethera of all style games and levels everyday.


They DID raise all their entry fees which I did not like nor agree with. These kind of events really can only be run by casinos that get extra money through increased action in the poker room and in table games. Foxwoods added a lot of money to the prize structure, I'm sure they got this extra money from that increased action. Especially out in the pits. I don't care what others argue, many players who hit the tournament trail play craps, blackjck and other games in addition to poker.


The TOC was never going to work if not totally run by a major casino. It can't be run from sponsors and entry feees alone. I applaud Mike Sexton for his vision, if nothing else. Hopefully, a major casino will pick up an event like this becasue the format is great for tournament play. You have to excell in more than one form of poker to survive and eventually win a TOC style event. I, for one, hope it returns or is duplicated someday.


All tournies need to watch how high the fees get, Foxwoods, though atttracting some major west cost players, did not have the number of entrants as last year because of this higher fee. The higher fees should be offset by having more super satellites and charging a small bit more for those.

Mr. Malmuth says that the demise of the TOC is "very good news" because the entry fee was too high. In my opinion, this is a bizarre stance to take.


The TOC was our classiest event. Lee Munzer described it as "a poker treasure" in his recap. It was the only major tournament that required qualification to enter. It was the only major tournament that required excellence in limit and no limit games. It had a welcoming party, a parade of nations, an international competition-within-the-competition, and a sense of decorum unlike any other tournament. Participants in the TOC were treated like honored guests, a rarity in today's tournament world.


Was the entry fee too high? This year, $150 from each player went to the house, and an additional $50 from each player went to tournament dealers and floor personnel. However, $25,000, or about $62 per player, was added to the prize pool from tournament sponsors. So when the tournament started, the average individual participant was worth $1862, after ponying up $2000. Does that make the entry fee too high? Maybe.


Except no player was forced to enter the TOC. Each player decided on his or her own that the entry fee was acceptable. Further, if the entry fee was so high that not enough players were entering, why would the best solution be to end the event? A high entry fee is a problem that can be dealt with, it is not a reason to canel an entire tournament. Should we cancel future Super Bowls because we didn't like the 'N Sync halftime show?


If poker terminated every event where entry fees are over 10 percent of the buy-in, virtually all weekly tournaments would be gone. All satellites would be gone. All of the events at Foxwoods's recent World Poker Finals whose buy-ins were $500 or less would be gone. With sponsors' money, the TOC's effective entry fee was about 7.5% of the buy-in, and that included tokes.


The end of the TOC is a sad moment in poker's history. It will likely set us back years in our quest to be recognized as a legitimate game, and it was something most of the poker community looked forward to for the entire year.


Matt

"It will likely set us back years in our quest to be recognized as a legitimate game"


Poker is a legitimate game, just not one that commands advertising dollars. I think it could be marketed to achieve this, but one tournament folding is not going to make a big difference. In order to gain acceptance, I think there will have to be a televised tournament league. Like many new programs without network backing, it will have to start on a small budget until it shows that it has an audience with disposable income to buy the products that get advertised.


I think this is a marketable game, unfortunately it is a niche market. There is only a small % of americans that play poker or have interest in watching it on TV on a continual basis.

I say good riddens. As an informed consumer I have but one option when I do not approve of the way things are handled at poker tournaments. I can withhold my action. This is what I did for the last two TOC's and last years WSOP. No game is beatable if the rake is to high. Poker tournaments and the TOC in particular have priced themselves out of the market. How stupid do you think poker players are? Wait don't answer that.

I was a bit schocked to hear the TOC is history. As some of you might know, I spend most of my time playing money games in Europe and I don't play tournaments; still, the TOC had become quite an event in just a few years and I had thought about coming over a couple of times already to see if it was as good as some people claimed it was. This having said, I totally agree with Mr. Malmuth regarding his comments on the excessive entry fee. I know the TOC might have been something extra-ordinary (and therefore the juice might have been reasonable for such a special event), however I also know that in the past couple of years the entry fee for most tournaments has become more and more expensive, not to mention the fact that the opposition in tournaments gets tougher all the time. IMO, the casinos should lower the juice to max. 10% of the entry fee, something like max. $50 for the really big tournaments- after all, the main benefit for the casinos will be the side action anyway. I cannot agree with Craig, who stated they should lower the entry fees for tournaments and increase them for super-satellites (so the house will still make enough money), as the supers are expensive enough as they are. I think most casinos who do a good job are making enough money as it is, so we (the players) don't have to help them in finding ways to make even more money. Take care, and good luck,

Rolf.

I don't know about good or bad. I do know that when Mike Sexton separated from the event, I felt the hand writting was on the wall---pointing to the end. I played that first year and was impressed with novelthings he did.


about WSOP. it is like a snowball rolling down hill--bigger and bigger. frankly, I think Becky hopes high fees WILL reduce the size because of their space and other physical problems. I also think WSOP is one of the main things behind the growth of poker all over the world....somewhat the birthplace of tournaments, which in themselves bring much interest and attention to poker. AND could be so much more if handled and marketed properly...even without lowering fees.

I can't agree with your thinking here. You think Scotty, Men, Phil, T.J. and hundreds of other great tournement players "Can't beat the game cuz the rake is too high"? Ridiculous. These guys are making fortunes in poker because of skill on the behalf and non-skill on the behalf of their opponents.


If you didn't go to the TOC because you were good enough to play but couldn't beat the rake then there a bigger problem here than the rake. Maybe you better look at the other half of this equation. Nuff said!

You don't want to know the truth. You can't handle the truth. Why are most of the players you named always broke. I will try to keep this post on a high road. The arrogance of some of these tournament administrators is astounding. When the TOC went to taking 3% for the staff I suggested a boycott two years ago right here on this forum. I predicted the TOC's demise. There is nothing wrong with a man being broke. There is something wrong with a man staying broke. Please go to any major tournament and observe that they have deteriorated to satellite mills. There are a plethora of deadbeats begging for entry fees for satellites. I find this behavior contemptable. k

You simply don't understand the truth. The names I mentioned may be broke, I doubt that Men and T.J. are hurting. Spoke to T.J. last night as a matter of fact. He hardly seems like a mna on the felt. He metioned his next 3 stops and they aren't at home. Phil just bought a huge new house in vegas. If they are broke, it's not from a lack of winning money at poker.


How about some other names... Chris Ferguson, Vince Bugio, Miami John Cernuto, Mario Esquerra, David Pham, Tony Ma, Daniel Negraneau, Alan Cunningham, the list goes on and on. You want me to name more? Are you seriously thinking these are not winning players? I'll even give you one more....me. I make alot of money from tournament play and I pay alot more than 10 % in entry fees. Many other local boys make a healthy profit from tournament play.


You just aren't using facts in your argument. Fees may be too high, go ahead and complain. But there's still plenty of moeny to be made in T-poker if you have talent. That's the operative word...talent. If you're not doing so well, don't blame the fees, blame your game.


K!

I don't like your argument. Let's look at it from a slightly different perspective.


Suppose you are an expert player and are able to win one big bet per hour in a middle limit game, and tomorrow they raise the rake. This might mean that your win rate has dropped to let's say .95 big bet an hour when you play tomorrow. So you are still a pretty good winner.


But what about next year? Are you still a pretty good winner then? Does the higher rake now contribute to some poor players not playing anymore (or at least not lasting as long)? and do the marginal players now become the poor players? and do the excellent players like yourself now become marginal in terms of overall win?


This is what I have noticed over the years. When the rake is increased, it has very little effect on the current games in the short run but it probably has a long term effect. I believe the same will be true in the tournaments. As they keep pushing the rake up, it will gradually get tougher and tougher.

Few of all players are expert players. All of us get better every year. Our increase in expertise should be enough to offset the small increases in rake. So if I win one big bet an hout today and they raise the rake, as you say I should win .95 big bets per hour then. I say that my overall increase in expertise, and game selection, should allow me to hold my win rate or even increase it. The growth of poker over the last few years has brought an influx of truly novice players. I would be willing to bet that all good to expert players have increased their win rates in the lower to middle range games over the past several years. I know I have. Yes, these players will get better but poker will continue to grow, as does any industry where money is lucrative. I don't see the small rake and tourney fees as a big problem at this time.


God forbid we should see a true recession in the next few years. Now then you'd see some changes in the money flow in poker.

Poker's reigning world capitol and its finest venue the Commerce Casino is offering at least two events in February that are guaranteeing $1,000,000. The first is a multi rebuy limit holdem event $1570. The second is a single buyin NL holdem event $7600. So for $170 total juice and $9000 you can put alot of scratch in your pocket. This level of juice is acceptable to me. I truly hope a poster on this forum wins both events. Happy Thanksgiving.

I am very sorry to hear about the TOC being canceled. This was a unique event. Was the juice high? Yes. Were there benefits to this event that payed for that? Yes.

This tournament started the recent trend of big events going non-smoking (in the Orleans, now their is irony). They expanded the pay-out pool, by (this is really bizarre, I know) asking players, listening to the majority, not the small percentage of "pro" players who pushed for a higher percentage payout for top places (and then usually make deals behind the scenes), and involving the small card rooms/small time players as being part of something special.

In the big scheme of things this event was worth the extra money it cost to enter, it was a pleasure being part of it, and I appreciate the work of Chuck Humphrey/Mike Sexton and hope something similar comes into being down the line.

Best,gary

"To gain acceptance there will have to be a televised tournament league."


An interesting possiblility but WHAT do they televise? Does the audience see a player's hand. ALL the players' hands or no player's hand? I don't really know how much spectator appeal a poker tournament would have.


I think a POSSIBLE key to getting corporate sponsorship would be CHARITY. Don Imus has some ties with the Mohegan Sun. His company has a shop there, they run ads on his show. Maybe corporate sponsers would kick in to run a Don Imus Poker Tourney with some of the money going to his camp for kids with cancer. Of course this is just a possible example and the Sun has a small poker room.


Depending on the amount of sponsorship, the corporate money could be used in a number of imaginative ways.


For instance, the corporate sponsers could, in exchange for advertising at this event, could put up some money to go to the charity. In addition, some money could go to the casino so nothing from the players need do so. If there were enough corporatge money, there could be a guaranteed prize pool but some of the entry fees could go to the charity.* I am no expert at how these things are arranged but remember that golf, which many think has almost NO spectator appeal, has had much success with the combination of celebreties and charity.


*This last is a problem. The poker community seems to have a great many players who find it very convenient not to tip. While many of them ARE just cheapskates, others seem to feel this way because it makes their after-expenses poker EV bigger. Maybe the charity portion of the prize money could first be assigned as winnings.


Just some thoughts.


--

Will in New Haven