Pocket pair line

[Peter_rus]

I find myself using this line quite often on such boards. Do you like it at all against average player?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Peter_rus is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Peter_rus bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Peter_rus 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, Peter_rus folds.

Final Pot: 5.83 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 5.33 BB, won by BB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 0.50 BB, returned to BB.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. BB wins 5.83 BB. </font>

[scooby]

by definition, I can't see an average player laying down an ace here, even after the 3bet. Maybe we're playing against different 15/30 opponents, but I just don't think it happens much. Have you had better luck? Maybe people think I'm a giant LAG and call me down, though I tend not to pull this move...I'm much more likely to raise the turn after getting checkraised on the flop if I have something worth it, but that's me.

[craze9]

I don't really understand this line. Why do you 3 bet? Is it that you want him to just call so you can check behind on the turn? If so, do you intend to call his bet on the river?

I know its annoying as hell to get checkraised here by the bb but I think its a fold on the flop. If he has an ace you have 2 outs. And not many players checkraise that flop against a preflop raiser without an ace.

[lil feller]

I like the 3 bet, as many online players will c/r with any pair if there is an Ace on board. After the BB caps I think your decision really depends on your read on the BB. You must assume that he has you beat at this point, and you also must assume that a Q is good if you hit it. Your getting 13.75:1 on the call of the 4th bet. If this BB is loose/agg enough to give you 4 or 6 sb (2 or 3 turn bets) and then a river bet I think this 4th bet on the flop is worth a call. Combine that possibility with the outside chance of picking up a gutshot to the nuts, and I think it is worth while to see the turn card against most opponents. Thoughts?

[lil feller]

nearly every party 15/30 player would c/r this flop with any pair, hoping that the PFR doesn't have an ace...

[Nate tha' Great]

I'll *sometimes* make this play. It's one of the few times that I think raising for information has some value, as you have a potential savings of 1.5 BB versus calling down. The villian, obviously, needs to be about the right kind of aggressive - aggressive enough to check-raise the flop with an ace, and to put in that 3-bet more often than not, but no so aggressive as to play back at you with a worse hand. I would be more reluctant to make this play if I had your hand on an A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif board.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the 3 bet, as many online players will c/r with any pair if there is an Ace on board. After the BB caps I think your decision really depends on your read on the BB. You must assume that he has you beat at this point, and you also must assume that a Q is good if you hit it. Your getting 13.75:1 on the call of the 4th bet. If this BB is loose/agg enough to give you 4 or 6 sb (2 or 3 turn bets) and then a river bet I think this 4th bet on the flop is worth a call. Combine that possibility with the outside chance of picking up a gutshot to the nuts, and I think it is worth while to see the turn card against most opponents. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the play is worth it if you have to consider calling a 4-bet. If the BB is LAG enough to give you that much in the way of implied odds if you hit your hand, then I think it's probably best just to call down.

[craze9]

I dont think this is true at all, and I play Party 15/30.

Most of the time preflop raisers will be hit by that flop. Checkraising here with most hands that dont have QQ beat is terrible.

I think most of the bad players on Party are more likely to check call the whole way with a jack and hope its good.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
by definition, I can't see an average player laying down an ace here, even after the 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want him to lay down an ace, - i want him to show if he has an ace exactly and not middle or small pocket pair and then i fold cause i don't think i have proper implyed odds. The problem is that he ofthen won't show bad ace after 3-bet by capping - he will call down it till river, so im usually bet turn - check river in these spots.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm much more likely to raise the turn after getting checkraised on the flop if I have something worth it, but that's me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use this line occasionally too in mixture with line abouve and fold to a 3-bet on turn but line above is cheaper and let you get away for only 1.5BB while second costs you 3BB.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
Checkraising here with most hands that dont have QQ beat is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not so terrible and it's greatly depends on attacker stile and PFR. I have an ace in my hand if i raise PF from MP1 a bit more than 50% adding here JJ and 88 will results say around 55%. If i will always fold to a c/r with not containing A hand right here it would be correct to c/r flop with any two in the pocket as he will take a pot of 5.5SB's 45% of time for only 2SB's and he needs less than 40% (2/5.5) to have his fair share. And some players likes this way of c/r flop bluffing - they usually fold to a flop 3-bet. The things becomes better when you have small flopped pair as not only you can win by c/r right here but you can also can catch your second pair or trips on turn adding you more than 10% of additional equity.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB is LAG enough to give you that much in the way of implied odds if you hit your hand, then I think it's probably best just to call down.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

This line doesn't work with players that give lesser info by their bets. As LAG doesn't give enough info by bets/raises, and you cannot find right spots to fold it's always better to call down them with a little and try to cap against them with a big. Of course there can be also some passive players again whom i wouldn't 3-bet and fold to flop c/r right here.

[vmacosta]

I play CA B&amp;M Mid-limits, so while these games often have quite a few LAGs, this play may be less effective for PP 15, but if I have a tight image, I often check the flop and pop the turn if he bets out. If they 3-bet, I have an easy fold. If they call, my decision to bet on the river is based on my read of my opponent. This play does cost 2 BB but it also forces an aggressive opponent to have a hand and not outmaneuver me with a jack or KQ on the flop (LAGs love to stick in that cap bet when they know it can't get raised again!). Will this work on PP 15/30?

[34TheTruth34]

I like it against "the average player", but you'd need a hell of a lot of hands to know exactly which players to use this against, wouldn't you? Like Nate said, you'd need your opponent to not be too LAGgy to be capping with a worse hand, but at the same time, you'd need him to cap with almost every hand that beats you. That's tough to find, no? It's got to be almost impossible to know if you have that type of player or not, doesn't it?



p.s. Am I the only one who checked the results? lol

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I play CA B&amp;M Mid-limits, so while these games often have quite a few LAGs, this play may be less effective for PP 15, but if I have a tight image, I often check the flop and pop the turn if he bets out. If they 3-bet, I have an easy fold. If they call, my decision to bet on the river is based on my read of my opponent. This play does cost 2 BB but it also forces an aggressive opponent to have a hand and not outmaneuver me with a jack or KQ on the flop (LAGs love to stick in that cap bet when they know it can't get raised again!). Will this work on PP 15/30?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's something that I do sometimes when I'm thinking about calling down unimproved anyway, and don't give up much of anything by folding to a 3-bet.

[Gabe]

I like this line a lot for times were knowing what to do is more important to me than money or when looking tough is more important than being tough.