Artest gone for year, other suspensions absurdly long

[Clarkmeister]

Artest for year.

Jackson for 30 games.

O'Neil for 25 games.

Wallace for 6 games.

Pretty absurd.

[Non_Comformist]

Good bye Pacers, I think Jackson's is fine but I don't remember O'neal actually going into the crowd. I thought he went after a fan who came onto the court. Big difference and if I am wrong then his punishment is too harsh.

[Tyler Durden]

Yea, it's absurd that Jermaine O'Neal isn't gone for the season after he took three steps and decked a defenseless fan that posed no threat to him. He was just looking for someone to hit. It reminded me of the Rodney King riots.

[Clarkmeister]

Yeah, that innocent fan only threw a punch at Artest and tried to tackle him. No biggie, right?

[Tyler Durden]

Right.

[Edge34]

Tyler,

The "fan" O'Neal decked came onto the court. First mistake. He also was involved in some kind of conflict with other Pacers and even coaches. Second mistake.

Third mistake? He didn't watch his own ass. He got what he had coming. IF YOU ARE A SPECTATOR, YOU DO NOT GO ONTO THE COURT. IF YOU DO, YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK. This "fan" learned that the hard way. About time, too, if you ask me.

-Edge

[mmcd]

Boys will be boys. Give them a token slap on the wrist for causing all sorts of commotion, then move on. Contrary, apparently, to most people's view on these types of things, I actually enjoy seeeing them. Fans should get in fist fights with the away teams players more often.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clark is like a 4 year old child, he doesn't get it. Just stop trying to explain this situation to him.

[HDPM]

Artests is too short, but more than I expected. Wallace's is too long. Artest should have to prove he has completed anger management, a psych eval, and followed all treatment recommendations in the psych eval before reinstatement. Artest's suspension is probably long enough to deter future riots. The situation could have turned out a lot worse.

[Clarkmeister]

I know. I'm sure you'd just sit there and let someone wail away while you did nothing to protect yourself, or your friends. That's awesome. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Artests is too long. I love the message to fans: Do whatever you can to incite the players on the court and you might get them kicked out for the season and help your team. Outstanding.

It happened before and the suspension was 10 games for Maxwell. 30 games for Artest would have been more than punitive enough.

Jackson, Wallace and O'Neil's suspensions are roughly double what they should be. Stern trying to make a statement.

The Pistons should absolutely have to play their next home game against the Pacers without any fans in attendance, ala international soccer. To have no repercussions to the team or its fans is only going to encourage this behavior.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The only thing that's absurd is that anybody cares about the NBA.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that's absurd is that anybody cares about the NBA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the Bulls suck I normally wouldn't, but I have this damn fantasy basketball league to worry about, so I actually need to pay attention. FWIW, I have none of the players involved on my team.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
The Pistons should absolutely have to play their next home game against the Pacers without any fans in attendance, ala international soccer. To have no repercussions to the team or its fans is only going to encourage this behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. People are going to respond with, "Oh, but those fans will get prosecuted," blah blah blah. Sure, but the most punishment any of those fans will get is a day or two in jail. I think there are roughly 10 million people in this country who would gladly spend a day or two in jail if it meant their team had a much better shot at the championship.

The fallout from this is that fans will be much more emboldened, especially in Detroit and other cities with classless fans. I really fear that it will take a player losing an eye or getting a serious head injury from a thrown object before anybody feels it necessary to deal with this idiocy.

[Ulysses]

How long do you think they should go to jail for?

[slickpoppa]

The fans that went onto the court and threw stuff were clearly wrong, but two wrongs do not make a right. From a policy perspective, the league cannot just let the laws of the jungle prevail. By allowing a player to retaliate against a fan just for the sake of his honor or his teammates' honor without severe consequences, the league would be encouraging a similar incident to occur in the future. Any rule making body such as a sporting league or government cannot turn a blind eye to vigilantism because doing so just perpetuates the cycle of violence, which is exactly what they are trying to prevent.

If you think that the player's supsensions are not proportional to their offenses, think about the proportionality of tackling someone and punching them in the face for throwing a cup of water. Or what about coldcocking someone in the face for simply being where they should not be?

[HDPM]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Pistons have repercussions for the fans or team. But Artest was way out of line, as I have posted about in this and the other thread. And part of the reason why (not the main reason) is that he knew he was in Detroit. He did a deliberately provocative thing by laying on the scorer's table. (I know people say he disengaged, but it was clearly a move to make the whole thing a spectacle/to show up everybody) And then he charged the stands in Detroit. That is a recipe for a riot. No credit to Detroit, but the reality is that his behavior was much more dangerous in Detroit than in Davenport Iowa or boise. Less dangerous than in some third world soccer match. But totally crazy and out of line IMO.

It would not surprise me if there is a huge riot or something at a game and it hurts sports' overall popularity at some point. Hope it doesn't happen. A good place to start is major suspensions. Like for the Angels pitcher who tossed the chair - easy 5 year or life ban. Doesn't bother me of teams forfeit games for ridiculous fan behavior. But it might be better to announce after the game. Forfeit an ongoing game and there might be a riot. Then again, if fans can dictate the outcome - as you point out in your post - there is a whole host of other problems. Not a good situation. Oh, well, bread and circuses for the masses in a republic in decline, right? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

everyones suspensions are too long, except Wallace. His should have been 10 games. Bye Bye Pacers, it was a fun season for a couple weeks. This team won't even make the playoffs now.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that's absurd is that anybody cares about the NBA.

[/ QUOTE ]

By far the best post in this thread!

[Michael Davis]

"No credit to Detroit, but the reality is that his behavior was much more dangerous in Detroit than in Davenport Iowa or boise."

I don't agree with this statement, but even if I did, there are no locations where basketball is played in stadia where this type of event could not have happened.

As if it really matters, the Palace of Auburn Hills is located in a very wealthy suburb that is about 1/2 hour away from Detroit.

-Michael

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
As if it really matters, the Palace of Auburn Hills is located in a very wealthy suburb that is about 1/2 hour away from Detroit.


[/ QUOTE ] You are right, this doesn't matter.

[Richard Tanner]

Well I guess we all learned a valuable lesson. After the inevitable nothing that will come about as punishment for the fans (remember those guys that charged that third base coach), we as fans are once again free to assult anyone we like and even to enter the field of play (although you might get punched, but hey whats a bruise to getting your rivals star player out for the season). Just a reminder if you do happen to run out on the court, make sure you run back into the stands after suckerpunching the player of your choice, becuase he can't follow no matter what.

Friday was sad, today is a truely dark day, I can only hope that riots break out at more games forcing Stern to come off his high horse and realize that those players in his charge are people too. Oh well at least Artest didn't get the death penelty (I'm only half joking).

Cody

[hoyaboy1]

Wallace should be 10? Have you ever watched or followed the NBA before? Similar actions in the past got a 1-3 game suspension - his was this long only because of the aftermath.

Now we just wait to see what kind of charges are brought against Jackson, O'Neal and Artest.

[hoyaboy1]

The guys who ran onto the court will surely lose their season tickets, be banned from the arena, and be subject to fines and/or jailtime.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Wallace should be 10? Have you ever watched or followed the NBA before?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have YOU ever watched or followed the NBA before? The foul that got his panties all in a twist wasn't even that hard, and aren't even hard enough to be CALLED when they're done to Shaq multiple times nightly. If Wallace doesn't wig out over a little foul, heck, if he just quits after the shove, MAYBE he and Artest sit for a game and are back with their teams. Part of me thinks it was just Big Ben's pride wouldn't let a foul go at the end of such a whipping at home.

-Edge

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
No credit to Detroit, but the reality is that his behavior was much more dangerous in Detroit than in Davenport Iowa or boise.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know that this didnt happen in detroit, right?

[Richard Tanner]

Right you just keep thinking that, I doubt anything will happen to them, who knows if they were even season ticket holders and not people from the nosebleeds, or better yet people who were using those tickets for one game from the acutal owner of the seats.
Bottom line is they pay nothing (or as close to nothing as you can get without actually being nothing) and they get rewarded, assuming they are Pistons fans, incredibly.

Like I said, learn from this, if you want to cripple a team in any sport, especially the NBA, just charge the court, suckerpunch a good player, and run like hell. Once he follows, which he will if not his teammates, BAM ready bake one year suspension.

Cody

[hoyaboy1]

Yes. Because a player running after someone who came onto the court and suckerpunched him is equivalent to a guy charging into the stands because a cup of beer got thrown at him. Nice analogy.

RE: Wallace - find me one guy in history who has been suspended 6 games for pushing someone. I don't mind his suspension but it was much more the result of the aftermath than his actual actions.

[nothumb]

You keep trying to act like this wasn't a tremendous cheap shot given the situation and the players involved. It was. Get over it. Wallace is one of the toughest players in the league. If you commit a bullsh't foul like that you can expect to get roughly what Artest got, and Wallace should expect a 1-3 game suspension for it. If Artest had sat his ass down in front of the scorer's table or the bench and stopped trying to show off, nothing would have happened.

NT

[Richard Tanner]

Slick,
If I run up to you and throw a cup of water and ice in your face and you punch me (or otherwise incapacitate me), we both get arrested, and after questioning I go to jail and you go free.
Also, while O'Neal was a little out of line with the running hammer punch, the clips are dangerously misleading, what they don't show is that right before that clip starts that fan is seen in a fight with a Pacers offical and a player (Artest I belive). Yeah O'Neal didn't need to take a running punch at him, but he was defending his team and friends (which I believe the law allows for in the case that a mob is baring down on you).
That said, I was all for the suspensions listed at the start of this thread as a comprromise between the crazy "burn him at the stake" posts and the equally crazy "let them all go free" posts (of which I am in favor).
The actual suspensions just reenforce that there is no line for the fans to cross, they are free to do whatever they please, and if history is any indication, their punishments will be fairly light.

Cody

[ThaSaltCracka]

your hyperbole is simply amazing and stupid.

Watch the highlights of the whole thing again. Wallace started the whole thing, and in fact he did absolutely nothing to defuse the situation.

I am done talking to you too because I have read several insanely stupid posts from you regarding this topic already.

[Richard Tanner]

Yes it is, it doesn't matter what the action, a phsyical threat to a player is a phsyical threat. People continue to try to say "it's only a cup". Ok, so at what point is it assult, and worthy of defending onesself, after two beers, three beers, at 10 ft away, at 5 ft away. The fact is the law makes these lines ambiguous because people have different limits and an attack, no matter the action, is an attack (after a resonable level, for example, bumping into someone on the sidewalk isn't sufficient cause to beat him up).
As for Wallace, yeah way to long, give him the usual two or three game (whatever is consistant) suspension for the throat punch and get on with it.

Cody

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
The Pistons should absolutely have to play their next home game against the Pacers without any fans in attendance, ala international soccer. To have no repercussions to the team or its fans is only going to encourage this behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been reading these Piston/Pacer threads for a couple of days, and I think Clarky has come the closest to what I think about the situation.

The Pistons playing in front of an empty house would hurt the Pistons slightly. Its sort of what I'm getting at.

After seeing the replays a few hundred times, I found the actions of the players to be one of the most disgusting displays of self control ever (and I've watched alot of European soccer).

Artest comitted a stupid, worthless foul when the game was completely out of reach. Wallace completely overreacted to the foul, and should have walked away. The rest is history.

My major problem with this incident was the complete lack of security and police throughout the entire altercasion. Where the hell were they? The whole thing lasted 5 minutes. If all the security in the building can't get to the bench area to insure the saftey of the players and the fans, then they aren't running. I'd bet that I could get from one side of the Palace to the other in 5 minutes in a wheelchair!

When the Pacers were leaving the court, they were being pelted with bottles, cups, food, and other various items from the crowd. There was a total of 5 security guards at the railings, and no one was lifting a finger. The camera man was in a better spot than security. The whole display was ridiculous and the people involved should be ashamed of what they were a part of that night.

Having said that, I think Mr Stern shoud fine the Pistons a ton of cash for basicly being stupid. Their inability to anticipate a situation like this breaking out atests to that. This is a big rivalry. Not Yanks/Sox, but big enough to have the possibility of this situation happening. Also, this isn't hockey, where fans are separated fromthe players by glass (although there have been instances where that didn't help). The Pistons, as well as every basketball arena should have more security in the bench areas because they are so accessable by the public. This goes for both the college and pro basketball teams.

Next time, lets see a team anticipate this type of fight and address it properly, before the fight happens. Fine the Pistons. They are just as responsible for this disaster as Ron Artest is.

Joe

[Richard Tanner]

Wait a tick Salt, he has a small point. That is we sholdn't blame this on Detroit, as it didn't happen in their city, but rather it is the fault of Detroit Pistons Fans, wherever they may have come from. That distiction is important.

Cody

[slickpoppa]

Rich, I agree that the fans should be punished for what they did, but that is the police's job, not the NBA's.

As for your example of you throwing water in my face and me punching you in retaliation, you are incorrect. Both of us could be arrested. It is a common misconcetpion that the person who does not make the first contact has a blank check to retaliate. True, the law allows for self-defense, but only in cases in which you are in danger of serious bodily injury. Although you throwing water in my face is insulting, it does not put in danger of bodily harm.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I was sort of joking. You are right, its the fans that are to blame, not the city.

[Richard Tanner]

Wait a sec, I agree that Artests foul was cheap and unessecary, but it wasn't flagrant. Wallaces reaction was based on pent up anger from the games outcome. Okay he's out for 3 and Artest is given a medel for his self control (as anyone should after walking away from a throat punch).
Wow this was great, aww no, some one just threw something at Artest when he was on the scorers table, great now we have a riot, what is Stephen Jackson even doing up there, wow why is that guy on the floor attacking people, oh well Artest and O'Neal will take care of it. Christ Almighty what a mess.
"Okay Ronny, sorry but you just can't enter the stands, I'm gonna have to suspend you for 20 games."
"20?!?! You only gave Maxwell 10"
"Yep 20, I know you were defending yourself, but next time find the nearest policemen (assuming Detroit will use them next time) and point the guy out, they'll deal with him."
"Okay next are Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson, sorry but you guys need to sit for 10 becuase of your actions and Stephen you get to sit an extra 10 for entering the stands after Artest"
"That's crap I was just defending my teammate."
"I don't care if it was you mother, do not enter the stands, the reason it's only 20 and not the season is that I understand that you were provoked, but that's still not an entirely forgivable excuse."
"Lastly we have Big Ben Wallace, let's see you throat punched Artest, that's three games and think about why we shouldn't throat punch people."
"Oops I almost forgot the Detroit Pistons Franchise. I know you love the look of the Palace packed with fans, but I'm gonna give you a chance to enjoy it when it's devoid of fans. THat's right, since you can't control your fans, or even put enough security to defuse a situation, you get to play your next game against these Pacers without any fans. Thank international soccer for that one."
"Pacer Fans, I know you don't want any suspensions but you have to realize that occasionally players must rise above the actions of fans. Your players will pay their penelties for their actions, and be thankful they were acting in self-defense or they would be done for a year."
"Pistons fans, you need to learn that your actions will have consiquences, no longer will you be granted impunity as part of a large crowd. Your team will suffer from your actions, and I can only hope that the law does everything in it's power to bring you to justice (ed. note- It won't)."

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

I suppose this is where we differ in our opinion of the incident. I see the water as a precursor to further violence, whereas I think you see it as an isolated incident. Neither of us will ever know who is correct, but I will say that I highly doubt that if Artest does nothing (or mearly calls security) that the shower will stop there. What do you think the fans would think after seeing Artest just take to water, do you really think they would stop?

Cody

[slickpoppa]

In an ideal world, fans would be thrown out and banned for throwing things. Unfortunately that is not the case. But allowing players to retaliate just makes the situation worse.

[andyfox]

"Pretty absurd."

I agree. Far too light.

[Non_Comformist]

Does anyone think this could have something to do with David Stern wanting Shaq and the Heat to have an easier road to the NBA finals?

[andyfox]

"I love the message to fans: Do whatever you can to incite the players on the court and you might get them kicked out for the season and help your team."

That's not the message at all. The message is you don't go into the stands to punch people because a cup of water hits you in the chest. The message is a borderline lunatic is going to pay severely for lunatic behavior.

I agree that the next game should be without fans and, more than that, should not be allowed to be televised or otherwise broadcast. Plus all other Pistons revenue for said game should be donated to charity.

[JTrout]

yes.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
"Pretty absurd."

I agree. Far too light.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that bad. Artest definitely got what was coming to him. I would have been disappointed if he wasn't gone for the season. I'm surprised Stern got that much of it right.

[sublime]

does ron artest even care that he is suspended?

[andyfox]

You think Stern would have given Artest the same punishment if a fan had come out onto the floor, punched him, and then ran back into the stands? That's not what happenend. Artest took a cup of water (or soda) on the top of his chest and then went into the stands to beat up the wrong guy. If he stands up, asks the other fans to identify the culprit, the police get the guy and escort him out.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
does ron artest even care that he is suspended?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is out about $5.5 million. I'm pretty sure that's going to bother him a little bit.

[andyfox]

Stern is head of the NBA. He is responsible for disciplining the players. He cannot arrest the fans. He did say, in imposing the punishments, that fan control is important too and the league will upgrade its efforts in that regard.

[kyro]

that's the dumbest thing i've heard in a while. if that was true, stern would also have handed out suspensions to the bulls who are a legitimate threat.

[Richard Tanner]

I think you've about summed up this entire mess. I"m not sure what's right, but I'm positive the present situation is wrong.

Cody

[nothumb]

If you're saying that Wallace's suspension should be longer because everyone else's was so long, I don't really agree.

I think three games for Wallace is probably the maximum I could possibly support.

As I said before, I enjoyed the fight thoroughly. I think the fans got what they deserved and I think the most severe penalty should go to the Pistons organization.

Artest will get more than Maxwell because of how ugly the incident was for the league and his prior history. Not saying it's fair, but in his position you have to understand the situation. When you wade into the stands in Detroit, when the fans are that bitter, you know you could start a riot. I said before and I'll say again, I think something more along the lines of 15-20 games and a very visible, somewhat unorthodox community service would have been better from a PR point of view, and more ingenius on Stern's part. However people are sick of Artest and will be calling for his head. People need to understand that basketball and its rules, like any sport, are based on entertainment, public opinion, etc. Live with it.

I'd toss Jackson and O'Neal for ten games and, again, some sort of visible, proactive service plan. But we don't believe in rehabilitation in this country.

NT

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest for year.

Jackson for 30 games.

O'Neil for 25 games.

Wallace for 6 games.

Pretty absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

For physically assaulting a fan, I think 30 games is too light.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Third mistake? He didn't watch his own ass. He got what he had coming. IF YOU ARE A SPECTATOR, YOU DO NOT GO ONTO THE COURT. IF YOU DO, YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK. This "fan" learned that the hard way. About time, too, if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the fan should have kept his yapping mouth in the stands and not come down to the court. But still, a punch to the head by a professional NBA player is not warranted.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
I know. I'm sure you'd just sit there and let someone wail away while you did nothing to protect yourself, or your friends. That's awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hhaha, Sponger got PwNddddd...

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose this is where we differ in our opinion of the incident. I see the water as a precursor to further violence, whereas I think you see it as an isolated incident. Neither of us will ever know who is correct, but I will say that I highly doubt that if Artest does nothing (or mearly calls security) that the shower will stop there. What do you think the fans would think after seeing Artest just take to water, do you really think they would stop?

Cody

[/ QUOTE ]
For future reference, although most people would agree with your interpretation, the law does not view something such as throwing water at someone as sufficient grounds for self-defense. Courts interpret self-defense VERY narrowly. Although a typical bar fight does not lead to the law getting involved, it is something you should worry about. Especially if you have a decent amount of money, you could be looking at a very expensive law suit if you punch somebody. I won't be surpised if Artest coughs up thousands to the fans that he punched.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
In an ideal world, fans would be thrown out and banned for throwing things

[/ QUOTE ]

They do get thrown out and banned.

[billyjex]

The rap album is going at least triple-platinum. He's a thug, and thugs sell records.

He even beat up a skinny white guy!

And he has all that time off to promote the album.

[Richard Tanner]

I was implying that Wallaces penelty is too hard, he should be out of three max (he did throat punch another player). THat said, you're my new hero, mail your post to Stern. I see what you suggest as an excellent compromise between telling players they can't enter the stands, and fans that they can't harm players.

Cody

[slickpoppa]

They usually get thrown out, but not banned.

[Richard Tanner]

There now that someone made the joke, can we not have it repeated please.

Cody

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The rap album is going at least triple-platinum.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I'm just hoping you are kidding. If so, it did make me laugh. /images/graemlins/smile.gif If not, lets wait until that actually HAPPENS before you start counting his money. I doubt it will happen.

Regardless, I bet he is still pissed that he lost $5.5 million. Not even the richest of the rich shrug off 5.5 mil. Unless your name is Bill Gates. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Richard Tanner]

THat is if anything happens at all. Being thrown out is nothing, the game was already over. It will suprise me greatly if any charges are brought against fans regarding this. As usual they will get a pass.

Cody

[JTrout]

he's probably already negotiating his new video game, "Haymaker" with a signing bonus of 5.5m.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Clark,
The title of this thread is pure gold.
-TSC

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest for year.

Jackson for 30 games.

O'Neil for 25 games.

Wallace for 6 games.

Pretty absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the precedent for this would have been set when Vernon Maxwell went in to the stands and hit a fan a few years back. Maxwell was suspended 10 games. The suspensions they handed out are a bunch of @#%$. I'm through watching the NBA for the year.

[ThaSaltCracka]

what are the chances Artest comes back this year? The players association is appealing his suspension, as well as O'Neals and Jackson's.

[deacsoft]

I would think fairly high, but they may be remain higher than usual because of his reputation. Just as Rodman was treated more harshly then others in the league with similar incidents. It's just not right. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
what are the chances Artest comes back this year? The players association is appealing his suspension, as well as O'Neals and Jackson's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who would want this guy after he asks for time off to promote some rap album, and now this?

[Richard Tanner]

The Pacers would, flaws and all he was their number two guy.
As a side note, does anyone here really think that any fans will be punished (I'm not saying should I'm saying WILL). I think part of my frustration in this incident comes from my strong belief that the fans will once again get away scott free.

Cody

[hoyaboy1]

I think Stern hears the appeals - so chances ain't so high.

[billyjex]

What the hell do you want?

Pistons org. have said the fans they have identified as causing trouble will lose season tickets and probably be banned. Criminal charges, what do you think they should get? Attack with a lethal plastic cup?

[GuyOnTilt]

Pretty absurd.

Oh, c'mon Clark. Going into the stands to protect your teammate and defending your coaches and teammates from fans who came onto the court and were assaulted and/or phyically threatening them has got to worth AT LEAST 25 or 30 games. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

GoT

[Blarg]

Everyone is always making excuses to hold celebrities to different standards. That's desicable.

Describing as self defense what I saw -- I guy just lunging out at someone with his hands down and punching him in the face -- is ridiculous. Any of us would have been in jail for that crap, forget suspensions.

These coddled superstars should get it through their heads that they have a lot to lose if they act like jerks. They could lose the endorsements that Peewee Herman and Michasel Jackson did if they get out of line.

Guys like this are sometimes so rich that no matter what they do, they can outrun the consequences. It's good in a thousand ways that they serve as examples of people who did not outrun the consequences of their behavior.

Basketball schmasketball. Who the hell cares. Punching peole in the face who aren't even attacking you should be punished, and by people who should know so, so, so much better, it doesn't hurt at all that it's punished severely. And being banned from your profession for being completely unimaginably unprofessional doesn't come close to severe punishment. Some jail time PLUS the latter might start to come close.

It's funny; if it was just some guy outside your house who did the exact same thing under similar circumstances, lots of these defenders of out of control public figures would completely change their tunes and give nutty behavior its proper value.

God forbid a celebrity gets even the smallest part of what he deserves for misbehavior.

[Richard Tanner]

Settle down, I'm just a bit skeptical that anything will happen. I doubt the Pistons know who they are since there's no assurance that the fans are actually season ticket holders. In any case the Pistons would come out and say they knew who they were even if they didn't (gasp a lie, say it ain't so). This PR nightmare needs ammediate attention, so this announcement was already planned minutes after the event transpired (I'm not placing blame, anyone would do it, it was the smart thing for them to do).

Honestly, what do you think they should get, or more importantly what would be your reaction if they get off. Fans have a history of getting off with things such as these. Often these things are left to go away, and sadly they do, because Artest is famous but "fan in frame 0003 whose in seat 32" will be soon forgotten.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

I'll say that if I ever so much as throw a cup a you, I hereby give you promission to beat me until I'm incapable of further harming you. Of course this will never occur, BECAUSE I DON"T THROW CUPS AT PEOPLE. Come on, direct corralation here.

"I guy just lunging out at someone with his hands down and punching him in the face -- is ridiculous."

I'll assume that you're refering to both Artest in the stands and O'Neal on the court. In Artest's case he didn't punch, he grabbed. I'll grant you that this is mainly a semantic argument, and that the grab was done with alot of force, but a grab and a punch are different things at heart. A punch is done to harm, a grab is done to restrain/control. This is a petty argument, however, when compared to the one against O'Neal (to whom you may not have been refering, and if you weren't I apologize). Just before the O'Neal "slide punch" that is been on loop at ESPN, that fan was shown, although in not nearly as many replays, as just having struck a Pacers coach and player and spilling out onto the court. He wasn't innocent, and had just committed a violent act. Thus we see the dangers of making judgements with limited information.

Bottom Line, Friday was a terrible thing for the NBA (although make no mistake, the NBA love this as ratings will now be through the roof on Christmas). It's foolish to place all the blame on any one party (although it's good to see people have stopped blaming Wallace). The punishments are too harsh by design for two reasons. 1) They should come down just a bit on appeal and 2) enen if they don't it's much better to err on the side of over punishing then being to lienient.

Cody

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
1) They should come down just a bit on appeal

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Not this time. Artest will be gone for the whole year, no question. I suppose perhaps jackson and o'neil could get reduced "sentences", but somehow I doubt it. These punishments are designed to send a message to the players. A message they already knew but apparently forgot somewhere along the way.

Players can't go into the stands.

Nothing good can come of it.

The last thing I'm going to say about this issue is that Artest is a coward. He ran from Wallace like a little girl, but watch out skinny white fan! He's not afraid of you! That shows what kind of person he really is.

[Richard Tanner]

Well if your done then I'll throw in the last word. I think (sadly) that you're right, Artest's won't come down. He is to be the example. Oh well at least he isn't dead or in prison (yet? /images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

"The last thing I'm going to say about this issue is that Artest is a coward. He ran from Wallace like a little girl"

No he ran as if he was a man who'se been through enough on-court altercations to know that you don't retaliate. He did the smart, not at all cowardly, thing. Sadly, he wasn't able to handle the actions of the fan. Right, wrong, or indifferent, he wasn't a coward, he was being smart. Damn that fan, he ruined what would have been a banner moment for Artest.

[Zoltri]

For those who think the penalties were too harsh...consider this.

Latrell Sprewell received a 68 game suspension from David Stern for choking a coach in a closed door practice.

Maybe Ron Artest should be thankful the penalty was not life time.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
if I ever so much as throw a cup a you, I hereby give you promission to beat me until I'm incapable of further harming you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if someone near you throws a cup at him? Can he still beat you?

[Drac]

I'm sick of this garbage about Artest being a coward. If he cold cocks Wallace he's a thug. If he backs down he's a coward. Just come out and admit you hate the guy and can't apply any logic to the situation because of your feelings.

Wallace's suspension is the only one the league got right. He continued to try to get to Artest and threw at least one object at him. When you don't leave the court you get a longer suspension. Wallace escalated the entire situation with his behavior. Talk about Artest losing it, how about Wallace going nutty for no reason at all? The foul was routine NBA stuff. The announcers didn't even call it a HARD foul until well after Wallace nutted out. Wallace incited the riot and his punishment is just.

Artest deserves to be punished but this suspension is way out of line. It's like giving a jaywalker a year in prison. Stern is pandering to the public because of all the negative pub the league has received for the incident. The NBA has suffered from declining popularity over the last 5 - 10 years and Stern has way overreacted to this event.

How the hell are the Pistons not punished for a total lack of security? From the time Wallace hits Artest to the time Artest goes into the crowd you see ZERO cops and ZERO rent a cops on the scene. It wasn't like that was the first item thrown at Artest. There was plenty of time to get some security on site to control the situation. Then when they do show up the go after the Pacers players on the floor and do nothing to defuse the situation.

The two morons that come on the floor deserved to get their asses kicked. The first guy is clearly threatening Artest and the second jumped on Artest after his buddy ate some fist. O'Neil did what anybody in that situation would do...he came to the aid of his friend in a situation where they were surrounded by hostile people. It's easy to evaluate the tape and say he should or shouldn't do this or that. Put into that environment I think we all would have reacted in a similar manner.

[Drac]

Yes, he CHOKED somebody. He didn't grab them and push them down. He didn't punch them after they clearly engaged him in a fight. He choked his coach, left, then came back and tried to assault him again. His coach verbally abused him. Artest was assaulted by Wallace and then by the fans. His punishment should be less than Sprewell's, not more.

Sprewell's suspension was also reduced as it was found to be way out of line.

[Drac]

He didn't beat the guy. Watch the tape. Please don't go into definitions of beating. He grabbed/pushed the guy, no doubt about it. Beat? No way.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of this garbage about Artest being a coward. If he cold cocks Wallace he's a thug. If he backs down he's a coward. Just come out and admit you hate the guy and can't apply any logic to the situation because of your feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want some context for my opinion, read all my posts about this issue. I gave Artest a lot of benefit of the doubt, and I was one of the few people being completely rational in my earlier posts.

I have said numerous times that Artest may be justified to hit the guy that threw stuff at him, but that it is unacceptable to do so.

Seriously, read through my other posts.

So, if I choose to make 1 single friggin joke in my last post, excuse the hell out of me.

Artest did the right thing when he backed away from Wallace. I wish he would have done the right thing and stayed away from the fan, as well.

Still, it was a joke. I don't advocate fighting by the players, at all. I just think it's funny who Artest actually decided to go after. No, don't go after the big guy, lets go after this tiny little person. It's kind of funny. So I made a joke.
I guess that makes me a horrible person.

[ThaSaltCracka]

what Sprewell did was worse than what Artest did.

[ThaSaltCracka]

you are a horrible person /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
you are a horrible person /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

it was a joke, does that make me a horrible person?

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't beat the guy. Watch the tape. Please don't go into definitions of beating. He grabbed/pushed the guy, no doubt about it. Beat? No way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he did. Reread what I wrote. Note the quote.

I would say that Artest attacked the guy.
I think he should get $$ for it.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
it was a joke, does that make me a horrible person?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew it was a joke, silly person. I was just showing my confusion about the other poster's reply. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it was a joke, does that make me a horrible person?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew it was a joke, silly person. I was just showing my confusion about the other poster's reply. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get it /images/graemlins/confused.gif

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Zoltri]

Cant agree there. Sprewell assaulting a coach is no where near as bad as 6'10" guys running in the stands and scrapping with 150lb guys (except for the fat guy on the floor...lol)

Fans are untouchable....bottom line.

[ThaSaltCracka]

dude, Spreewell tried to physically hurt his coach, the players crossed the line in the sense that they went into the stands, but these players looked like they were defending themselves too.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the precedent for this would have been set when Vernon Maxwell went in to the stands and hit a fan a few years back.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was about 10 years ago. Artest attacked more than one person in the stands and has been suspended by the league on 5 different occasions. So I think the precedent argument with Vernon "Mad Max" Maxwell is not valid in this case. Artest is generally regarded as a very dirty player, often "on the edge" IMO.

As for the fans, Stern clearly stated that he was only addressing one part of this incident now, the player actions. He clearly sent the message that there will be more ramifications regarding the fans behavior in this incident. My take is that he's reviewing his options. The player behavior is something he can address immediately.

Andy Fox had it right IMO, the Pacers had the option to call security and point out the problem fans. The fan actions should be punished as well. The NBA clearly has an image problem and Stern recognizes this.

[Drac]

What if someone near you throws a cup at him? Can he still beat you?

That's what you wrote. Note the word "beat", clearly implying that Artest "beat" the wrong guy.

[Toro]

This bit of information just put the whole thing into perspective for me. This suspension will cost Artest almost 6 million dollars. That is absurd.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think he will be back this year.

[JTrout]

Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of this garbage about Artest being a coward. If he cold cocks Wallace he's a thug. If he backs down he's a coward. Just come out and admit you hate the guy and can't apply any logic to the situation because of your feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want some context for my opinion, read all my posts about this issue. I gave Artest a lot of benefit of the doubt, and I was one of the few people being completely rational in my earlier posts.

I have said numerous times that Artest may be justified to hit the guy that threw stuff at him, but that it is unacceptable to do so.

Seriously, read through my other posts.

So, if I choose to make 1 single friggin joke in my last post, excuse the hell out of me.

Artest did the right thing when he backed away from Wallace. I wish he would have done the right thing and stayed away from the fan, as well.

Still, it was a joke. I don't advocate fighting by the players, at all. I just think it's funny who Artest actually decided to go after. No, don't go after the big guy, lets go after this tiny little person. It's kind of funny. So I made a joke.
I guess that makes me a horrible person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, nice over reaction. I hope you don't expect people to track down every thread you respond to before they can comment on ONE of them. You make it clear in this thread that you think the punishment is just for Artest then call him a coward. Don't know how I'm supposed to know which stuff you said was a joke. Note that I in no way attack YOU I just share my opinion that I thought that view was garbage. You're not even close to the only person that's posted that opinion (maybe you are on 2+2 but I read a lot more than just this) and I wanted to state that I disagreed with that view. I'm sorry if my post offended you.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the precedent for this would have been set when Vernon Maxwell went in to the stands and hit a fan a few years back.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was about 10 years ago. Artest attacked more than one person in the stands and has been suspended by the league on 5 different occasions. So I think the precedent argument with Vernon "Mad Max" Maxwell is not valid in this case. Artest is generally regarded as a very dirty player, often "on the edge" IMO.

As for the fans, Stern clearly stated that he was only addressing one part of this incident now, the player actions. He clearly sent the message that there will be more ramifications regarding the fans behavior in this incident. My take is that he's reviewing his options. The player behavior is something he can address immediately.

Andy Fox had it right IMO, the Pacers had the option to call security and point out the problem fans. The fan actions should be punished as well. The NBA clearly has an image problem and Stern recognizes this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mad Max was a repeat offender. Mad Max went after a guy for what he said, not for any type of threatening behavior. Do you think he was known as Mad Max because he's a sweetheart? I think the Maxwell situation is a good comparison. One of the biggest differences is that security actually showed up when Max nutted out.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, nice over reaction

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny...
I thought the same thing when I read your post, but you're probably right. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

[/ QUOTE ]

So much for 2+2 having people capable of debating without being insulting. And yes, I realize that's just not the case but I can hope for some lively discussion here without the absolute wacko stuff you see on ESPN and other major boards.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

[/ QUOTE ]

So much for 2+2 having people capable of debating without being insulting. And yes, I realize that's just not the case but I can hope for some lively discussion here without the absolute wacko stuff you see on ESPN and other major boards.

[/ QUOTE ]calm down man, geesh /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, nice over reaction

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny...
I thought the same thing when I read your post, but you're probably right. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

As are you! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bogey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No credit to Detroit, but the reality is that his behavior was much more dangerous in Detroit than in Davenport Iowa or boise.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know that this didnt happen in detroit, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

?? are you trying to be cute, because it was in a suburb or something??

[adios]

Just out of curiosity how and when was Maxwell suspended for fighting? Maxwell had problems off the court with drugs, guns, etc. and had an incident with a teammate in Houston off the court. We're dealing in the realm of opinion but Maxwell didn't have the reputation that Artest has of being a dirty player.

[NoPeak]

[ QUOTE ]


Maybe Ron Artest should be thankful the penalty was not life time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally, this guy should never be allowed to play in another NBA game in his career IMO.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity how and when was Maxwell suspended for fighting? Maxwell had problems off the court with drugs, guns, etc. and had an incident with a teammate in Houston off the court. We're dealing in the realm of opinion but Maxwell didn't have the reputation that Artest has of being a dirty player.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most recent example of an NBA player going into the stands and punching a fan came in February 1995, when Vernon Maxwell of the Houston Rockets pummeled a spectator in Portland. The league suspended him for 10 games and fined him $20,000.
I don't remember where I got this but there are multiple sites out there with the same info. Is this what you were looking for or are you tying this in to Artest's previous record vs. Maxwell's? I don't know if Artest has been suspended specifically for fighting in the past (not saying he hasn't, just can't find the info right now) but he has been nailed for flagrant fouls and yapping with Pat Riley. Last year he avoided trouble for the most part. Two years ago he got himself into all kinds of trouble but not for fighting, mostly for just being an idiot.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Maybe Ron Artest should be thankful the penalty was not life time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally, this guy should never be allowed to play in another NBA game in his career IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were the commish, that would be the case. I would fine the ever-living [censored] out of the Pistons and anyone involved in arena security and/or concessions. Jackson would get at least a 50 game suspension.

You CANNOT allow players to interact with fans in this manner. The long-term damage to the league this incident has caused is incalculable. The fans involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Any season tickets should be forfeited without refund.

Basically, everyone involved should get their ass kicked so hard that a situation like this NEVER evolves again.

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
The two morons that come on the floor deserved to get their asses kicked. The first guy is clearly threatening Artest and the second jumped on Artest after his buddy ate some fist. O'Neil did what anybody in that situation would do...he came to the aid of his friend in a situation where they were surrounded by hostile people. It's easy to evaluate the tape and say he should or shouldn't do this or that. Put into that environment I think we all would have reacted in a similar manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably the most right on account of this incident i have read in this thread yet. there is no reason those 2 morons would be on the floor during the situation, other then to physically confront the players. in this situation, anyone would perceive these 2 as a threat. these two dipshits got what they had coming.

charging into the stands was ridiculous though, although one thing i know, is people are assholes, and if the guy who threw his drink has something else to throw, i'm sure he would have.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
charging into the stands was ridiculous though, although one thing i know, is people are assholes, and if the guy who threw his drink has something else to throw, i'm sure he would have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% that Artest and Jackson deserve stiff punishments but 73 games goes too far for Artest. The more I think about it maybe Jackson is OK at 30...I thought 20 was more fair initially but 30 certainly isn't out of line. Stern has said he's making an example out of these players. I think that's wrong. Give Artest 35 games and make it clear that if it ever happens again with any players the penalty doubles. It's like taking somebody that committed a crime and giving him 7 times the punishment the same crime received the last time it happened. There was no precedent for this level of punishment for similar acts.

[andyfox]

"There was no precedent for this level of punishment for similar acts."

Stern made it clear that he wanted to set an example with Artest because there was no incident that quite reached this level and because Artest has a history. (He wanted to "redefine the covenant betwen players and fans" and said "I did not strike from my mind that Ron Artest had been suspended on previous conditions for loss of self-control.")

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
"There was no precedent for this level of punishment for similar acts."

Stern made it clear that he wanted to set an example with Artest because there was no incident that quite reached this level and because Artest has a history. (He wanted to "redefine the covenant betwen players and fans" and said "I did not strike from my mind that Ron Artest had been suspended on previous conditions for loss of self-control.")

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the reason I have a problem with the length of the suspension...Stern jacked the number of games up to set an example and Artest is unfairly punished. Redefine the covenant by giving Artest 35 games (a lot more than previous trips into the stands had received) and making it clear that the next time it happened that the punishment would double. New boundaries would be established without making one player pay an excessive price and EVERYBODY would be fairly warned for the next time.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
New boundaries would be established without making one player pay an excessive price and EVERYBODY would be fairly warned for the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were ALREADY warned. That didn't work. The players are warned at the start of EVERY YEAR. They all know going into the stands is unacceptable. Apparently, a warning for the last couple decades wasn't good enough. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[DCIAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of this garbage about Artest being a coward. If he cold cocks Wallace he's a thug. If he backs down he's a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't call him a coward, but I see it like this:

If he punches Wallace, then attacks a fan, he's just blown a gasket.

If he punches Wallace, and refrains from attacking fans, whom, anywhere in america, WILL be throwing beer at him when he walks down the tunnel or whatever, then he's just standing up to Wallace.

If he avoids Wallace, and avoids the fans, he's Mr Nice Guy all of a sudden.

But, if he avoids Wallace, and attacks a fan (not even the fan that threw the cup), he's a coward. This is akin to someone getting angry at high school, deciding the bully would beat his ass, and dropkicking some 1st grade kid on his way home from school. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Funny, you can tell who the Pacers fans are.. "Artest shouldn't be suspended, maybe 1 game if they're feeling harsh.. Jackson and O'Neal, maybe a three hundred, four hundred dollar fine, but lock Wallace up and throw away the key!".... amusing. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

*Note: I'm not an NBA fan, have no team bias, and think the suspensions were about right. If the next Pacers @ Pistons game is played without any fans in the arena, I think the league office will have done an incredible job with the whole situation. I doubt they'll have the nerve to do so, but you never know. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
New boundaries would be established without making one player pay an excessive price and EVERYBODY would be fairly warned for the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were ALREADY warned. That didn't work. The players are warned at the start of EVERY YEAR. They all know going into the stands is unacceptable. Apparently, a warning for the last couple decades wasn't good enough. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know this for a fact? I'm not trying to be combative, just curious if you have inside info. If they really do receive a warning I'd love to see what it says. Their latest "warning" was in the form of a 10 game suspension for the last player that went into the stands. OTH if they are told before every season "Go into the stands and you're done for the season" then Artest certainly shouldn't be surprised by the punishment. Since the PA seems surprised and has called the punishments excessive I don't think there were any warnings of that nature given.

[adios]

The NBA collective bargaining agreement more or less outlines what the league can do to discipline players. You can argue ad infinitum about the fairness or unfairness of Artest's suspension it doesn't matter whether it was fair or not. The commissioner has the power and authority to impose the discipline he sees fit to administer within the rules of the player agreement. The bottom line is that Artest is accountable for his actions and when he goes up in the stands he's tempting fate. He made a concious choice and the potential draconian punishment that results from making that choice that the commissioner can render is well known to the players. It's part of the agreement they made in playing. I tried to explain Stern's reasoning (as I interpret Stern's comments) and you don't want to accept it fine. I support Stern you don't but Stern has the power and authority to do that and the players have a process for appealing Stern's ruling, it's a process the players including Artest have agreed to. If the players don't like the process hold out when their contract expires for something different. I guess I don't understand why all the hand wringing for Artest when the league has a clear collective bargaining agreement with the players that outlines the process for the commissioner administering discipline.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know this for a fact? I'm not trying to be combative, just curious if you have inside info. If they really do receive a warning I'd love to see what it says

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I know it for a fact. It's part of what is outlined every year before the season starts. Trust me, the players know this is a big rule that you can not break. The information is out there on the internet. Not very difficult to find. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the Maxwell situation is a good comparison. One of the biggest differences is that security actually showed up when Max nutted out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another big difference is that Maxwell's teammates, to the best of my knowledge, didn't go apeshit when he did go into the stands.

I can't be sure, of course, but I don't know that Artest's suspension would be as long as it is if Jackson goes up into the stands and restrains him, rather than going up there swinging and making the situation a lot worse.

-McGee

[River2Pair]

When Stern said, "The vote was unanimous, one to nothing," that was pretty gangster.

[Daliman]

Tell you what. Get into a fight with customers at YOUR work,(Mirage?)cause a near-riot, and see if you still have a job and don't go to jail, much less only get suspended for an extended period of time.

Artest was not "assualted" by fans. An EMPTY plastic cup hit him on/around his upper chest/chin area, and he lost it. O'Neal was not "protecting" Artest. He was taking a cheap shot at a guy who was getting up from a scrum.

Get a clue, some perspective, and a reality check. The 40-80 game has warped your sensibilities.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest for year.

Jackson for 30 games.

O'Neil for 25 games.

Wallace for 6 games.

Pretty absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think it's just about right...hit 'em in the wallet, where it hurts.

Besides, now Artest has all the time he needs to work on his music.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell you what. Get into a fight with customers at YOUR work,(Mirage?)cause a near-riot, and see if you still have a job and don't go to jail, much less only get suspended for an extended period of time.

Artest was not "assualted" by fans. An EMPTY plastic cup hit him on/around his upper chest/chin area, and he lost it. O'Neal was not "protecting" Artest. He was taking a cheap shot at a guy who was getting up from a scrum.

Get a clue, some perspective, and a reality check. The 40-80 game has warped your sensibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]


Tell you what. Find me customers who come into anyone's place of work, who can call you a M-F'er, a N-er, degrade your family, your persona, curse and swear at you without repercussion and apparently can throw objects at you as well.

Oh, wait. There is no such place other than pro sports.

The idea that the fans can do whatever they want simply because they pay for a ticket has gone way overboard. The fans need a reality check, and all sports leagues need to start thinking a lot more about what they allow the fans to get away with. This carte blanche mentality has got to go. If you seriously think the fans are blameless in this, then I really think you have utterly lost the ability to look at this fairly from both sides.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea that the fans can do whatever they want simply because they pay for a ticket has gone way overboard. The fans need a reality check, and all sports leagues need to start thinking a lot more about what they allow the fans to get away with. This carte blanche mentality has got to go. If you seriously think the fans are blameless in this, then I really think you have utterly lost the ability to look at this fairly from both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've stayed out of this fray so far (pun intended), but I have to butt in and say that I agree with this 100%. Good post.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea that the fans can do whatever they want simply because they pay for a ticket has gone way overboard. The fans need a reality check, and all sports leagues need to start thinking a lot more about what they allow the fans to get away with. This carte blanche mentality has got to go. If you seriously think the fans are blameless in this, then I really think you have utterly lost the ability to look at this fairly from both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've stayed out of this fray so far (pun intended), but I have to butt in and say that I agree with this 100%. Good post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this - Clark, you're a class act who obviously gets what's going on here. Thanks for posting so clearly and succinctly about how this thing is actually going down. My Pacers avatar apparently turned everyone off from listening to me. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Maybe the new one will help?

-Edge

[adios]

I can empathize with your frustration with the fans but when the players cross the line they have the commissioner to deal with. And their is a line whether you like it or not. It's part of their agreement. Perhaps in the next collective bargaining agreement go round the players can negotiate something about the fans that doesn't exist now. It seems that your point is far too lenient with the fans. You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Tell you what. Find me customers who come into anyone's place of work, who can call you a M-F'er, a N-er, degrade your family, your persona, curse and swear at you without repercussion and apparently can throw objects at you as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that a fan cannot be removed for exhibiting this behavior? Also I'm certain that there are many who gladly trade places with NBA players and collect the salaries that these guys make and deal with these problems. Put me on that list as one.


Second of all how can you be so absolutely sure there will be no repercussions to the fans involved in this incident. If there are repercussions such as criminal charges and subsequent prosecutions as well as action taken by the Pistons organization what will you say then? Methinks your being at least slightly impatient and jumping to conclusions.

[Clarkmeister]

"Are you saying that a fan cannot be removed for exhibiting this behavior?"

I'm saying they are not. At least not very often. Unless they are rooting against the home team, that is.

"If there are repercussions such as criminal charges and subsequent prosecutions as well as action taken by the Pistons organization what will you say then? Methinks your being at least slightly impatient and jumping to conclusions. "

C'mon. You know that's not going to happen. As has been mentioned countless times, those two who premeditatedly attacked Tom Gamboa in Chicago last year didn't even do jail time.

There are no real repercussions for the fans, except the reward of knowing that they helped their team out by taking actions that ultimately led to the crippling of their rival's chances and dramatically improved their favorite team's chances of winning a NBA title.

[JTrout]

It seems they've identified the fan that threw the cup.

Hopefully they will make an example of him.

[andyfox]

"they helped their team out by taking actions that ultimately led to the crippling of their rival's chances and dramatically improved their favorite team's chances of winning a NBA title."

I can't understand this. If Artest points out the cup thrower (which, of course, he couldn't have, since he didn't see it; but the guy could certainly have been identified by others) nothing happens. The only people who tooks actions that led to the crippling of their team were the Pacers who decided to go into the stands because one guy threw a cup.

You might just as well say that if a guy I beat at poker wasn't able to pay his rent I was responsible for taking actions that led to the guy being thrown out onto the street. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for one's actions?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
You might just as well say that if a guy I beat at poker wasn't able to pay his rent I was responsible for taking actions that led to the guy being thrown out onto the street. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for one's actions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the crucial point, and Andy states it very well. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Disagree.

What this ruling says is: "Hey fans, keep being obnoxious. Continue to verbally abuse players to no end, harass them, heck, even throw things at them. You may get lucky enough to incite an opposing player to the point where he gets himself suspended. You can be a hero to your team!"

Wonderful.

[Clarkmeister]

"Whatever happened to personal responsibility for one's actions? "

That's what should be asked of the fans who came onto the court. The line shouldn't be crossed and it applies to both groups of people. I still maintain that since he didn't go into the stands, O'Neal's punishment should have been minimal. He did absolutely nothing wrong.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Disagree.

What this ruling says is: "Hey fans, keep being obnoxious. Continue to verbally abuse players to no end, harass them, heck, even throw things at them. You may get lucky enough to incite an opposing player to the point where he gets himself suspended. You can be a hero to your team!"

Wonderful.

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually, it says nothing of the kind, but I understand your bias.

The players are not allowed to go into the stands.

That's the bottom line. Artest made his choice, and because of the way he has acted over the years he got a harsh penalty. He, and nobody else, is responsible for his own actions.

The fans in question are going to be ARRESTED! They are getting kicked out of all Pistons home games for the rest of the year (at least)! What more do you want them to do? They have sent a clear message to the fans as well, but your bias won't let you see that.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
He did absolutely nothing wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, except sucker punching a guy that was already down on the ground, but I digress...

[Clarkmeister]

What bias? I disagree with you so I'm biased?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
What bias? I disagree with you so I'm biased?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's obvious you have a strong bias to anyone reading this thread from start to finish. Respond to my point about the fans being arrested and banned for at least the rest of the season. Both sides are being punished, and since you flat out refuse to believe that is happening, I must assume you are still biased.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He did absolutely nothing wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, except sucker punching a guy that was already down on the ground, but I digress...

[/ QUOTE ]

A guy who was getting back up while the coach he came at after punching and grabbing Artest was being restrained. Yeah, what a martyr. I'm sure after fighting with two different Pacers he was about to just dust himself off and peacefully leave the court. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Clarkmeister]

How many fans? 3 or 4 of the 100+ that threw stuff? Being charged with a misdemeanor for coming on the court is proportionate to a $5mm fine? OOOOOOH, you took away my season ticket. Oh, no.

The franchise should be forced to play multiple home games in front of no fans. That'd wake the organization up quick and they'd take proactive instead of weak and ineffective reactive measures.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what a martyr

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, don't lump me in with people that are all about player hating.

In no way do I think that guy is a martyr. I just think he was under control. There were plenty of people around him, so why does O'Neil have to deck him while hes half laying down? Still, thats not my point, because when I saw that fat dumb man get decked in the face-

I laughed. I laughed HARD.

My position has always been that the players may have been justified in some of their actions, but that doesn't mean their behavior was acceptable.

I don't even think you believe that.

The only reason I jumped back into this thread was because you had some notion that the fans were being told they could get away with anything. I respectfully disagree. The fans in question are receiving as much punishment as can be dished out by the NBA.

The other point I was trying to make is that you can't say the fans were responsible for knocking the Pacers to the middle of the pack in the East. You can't stop the timeline to where it fits your agenda. If you go all the way back in the timeline, you will find that Artest was still the one that could have prevented all of this.

His stupid attempted hard foul with a big lead and 45 seconds left was what started it all. That's just acting like a punk. Next, the responsibility is on Wallace, and it just goes down the line all the way to the fans.

I guess all I'm trying to get across is that everyone involved deserves to be punished. All of the parties are responsible. As a fan of the NBA, I seriously hope we won't have to engage in this type of discussion ever again. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The franchise should be forced to play multiple home games in front of no fans. That'd wake the organization up quick and they'd take proactive instead of weak and ineffective reactive measures.

[/ QUOTE ]

The NBA is a business. This goes against what is in their best interests. It would be nice if we all lived in a perfect world, but the NBA isn't there for entertainment. It's there to make money. They are doing all they can within the realm of making a profit. Anything that hurts the Pistons trickles down to the NBA's bottom line.

No professional team in ANY sport would have this penalty levied against them, in the US. That's the cold hard truth of the business of sports.

If you are expecting a huge struggling business to give up that much profit, I guess you have seriously different priorites than the rest of the world. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[hoyaboy1]

The guy O'Neal punched never touched Artest. He ran in and covered what was presumably his friend after Artest hit the guy.

[Clarkmeister]

It's been done in international Soccer several times and I'm quite sure that those teams are in the business of making money also.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy O'Neal punched never touched Artest. He ran in and covered what was presumably his friend after Artest hit the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/motion/showcase/index?videos=1929559

First, his friend jumped forward and pumped his arm in a threatening motion. Artest quite natrually under the circumstances thew a punch at his friend after that, not before. Then he personally ran at Artest and threw a kidney shot.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
It's been done in international Soccer several times and I'm quite sure that those teams are in the business of making money also.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't Europe. This is the United States. Big business has a lot more leverage and gets away with a lot more in this country. They don't feel the need to bow to anyone, unless they have to.

There is no precedent for the action you seek in the United States. If the major sports have their way, there will never be one. Besides, football (soccer) games in Europe (etc) have a LOT more fans who are a lot more out of control. People die at football games around the world because of riots and fights. I don't think that has happened in the NBA. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[hoyaboy1]

Ok, I no longer respect your opinion at all. You call the guy falling over his friend, bumping into Artest, and slightly grabbing him for balance a kidney shot? Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure . . .

[Clarkmeister]

"That's just the way it is."

Wonderful solution.

"People die at football games around the world because of riots and fights. I don't think that has happened in the NBA."

Not yet.

[AngryCola]

Let me say just one more thing to you, Clark, before I head to bed for the night.

I think the fans behavior was completely unacceptable. The fact of the matter is that it is much harder to punish a group of fans as a whole. I wish they could find a way to find every single person that threw crap at the players and ban them for the year.

The logistics of that would be very difficult. You have to understand that. Plus, let's not fool ourselves, it's not like the Piston's fans were the first spectators to ever cause a lot of problems. That doesn't get them off the hook, but what about all the crap that happens with baseball fans, etc.?

This is a problem facing professional sports as a whole, and it's a hard one to deal with. Singling out the NBA and the Pistons is easy enough, but no other organization would be dealing with this in any significantly better way. All professional sports are at a loss with how to deal with this issue.

See ya, Clark. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
"That's just the way it is."

Wonderful solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually, when somebody uses quotation marks, it's because they are quoting something.

I never said that.

Also, I'm not here to solve anything, and it's a bit arrogant of you to think that somehow you or I can. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm certain that there are many who gladly trade places with NBA players and collect the salaries that these guys make and deal with these problems. Put me on that list as one.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's just one problem. You can't play basketball worth crap and no one is going to spend $300 for a front row seat to watch you flounder on the court.

[Richard Tanner]

Please be serious, unless artest pulls a knife one the guy and then proceeded to bet on the outcome of the game, he doesn't deserve a lifetime ban. That's just being crazy. No one in any other sport is subject to those kinds of penelties. A lifetime ban is just overboard for the sake of going over board.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Sticky this post to the very top, please. THis is a perfect description about the events. My only regreat is that I wasn't able to articulate it first. Thank you

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

So Fans are untouchable to players but players most certainly aren't untouchable to fans. Wow that's the tradgic double standard that's causing these kinds of things.

Cody

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Clark,

My biggest problem with this fight was that Artest had the presence of mind not to fight Ben Wallace after he was shoved in the face, and the presence of mind to lie on the scorers table where he does not belong. Now, Fans have no right to throw anything on the court or come onto the court, but Artest now gets hit with a cup and suddenly see's red. He can't fight Ben Wallace, but he can start guessing at which fan may have thrown something at him? Sorry, but he needs to be punnished, as does the fan that threw the cup. The Palace should be ashamed and held accountable for the lack of security. But Artest got what he deserved. If he wants to fight Ben Wallace, then at least it stays on the court. He decided to go after someone smaller and risk the safety of others in the stands. That's the main point.

[Richard Tanner]

In additionn, on the back of every ticket to an NBA game it says that throwing objects onto the court isn't allowed, wow I love rules.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Did you read your post before hitting the submit button. You say that you aren't calling Artest a coward and then proceed to describe his situation and say that a person in that spot is a coward. Hmmm. The you say that anyone who'se opinion differs from yours must be a Pacer fan, as if logic is only reserved for those who don't like sports (or the NBA).
Lastly, and most troubling, you equate the situation to a school yard fight by comparing the beer throwing fan to an innocent "1st grader". My dear Lord, the fan wasn't innocent, I'm refering to the one Artest meant to hit, not the one he did hit (which is the real sad part here). The fan that threw the beer isn't some bystander, he made it a point to be in the action by hurling his drink.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Drac, I hate to say this but he's right, he was quoting my use of beat not implying that Artest did the beating. I understand why his pst might cause you to infer that, and I think it's totally understandable.
As to answer his post, as I've said before, the second the guy near me throws a cup, I'm gone. I'm running as fast as I can away from that situation, to avoid exactly what happend. That guy saw what happend and didn't leave, he even proceeded to yell at Artest as he was coming up.

Cody

[Zoltri]

I agree the two fat guys who rushed the floor deserved what they got but could you imagine the outfall if O'Neils's punch put the guy in a coma or worse...killing him?

[Richard Tanner]

All I will say is that I'm glad he slipped, Really glad.

Cody

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm certain that there are many who gladly trade places with NBA players and collect the salaries that these guys make and deal with these problems. Put me on that list as one.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's just one problem. You can't play basketball worth crap and no one is going to spend $300 for a front row seat to watch you flounder on the court.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a second here .... well you're right /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[vulturesrow]

I think that the bottom line here is that professional sports are a fan driven business. Players cant go into the stands and attack the customer period. You can point fingers and speculate on who is actually to blame. I heard one of the players involved say "we aren't animals in a zoo." Well actually you are. You are paid to play a game to entertain people. Beyond the physical consequences of attacking people, Artest hurt the bottom line of his team and the NBA. Stern has every right to make an example of him.

[Noo Yawk]

HDPM has this right on. The key is to deter future events like these from occuring. If a player is not concerned about what happens to him, perhaps he'll consider that the team that he expects to back him will be punnished as well.
Their were a couple of players that clearly had the presence of mind to try and stop the fight without throwing punches.

The message is clear: don't go in the stands and fight your customers.

FWIW, I also believe the Palace has accountability to protect the players and fans from unruly behavior. When you enter an arena as a fan or participant there is a reasonable expectation of security, for fans, players and other employees.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree the two fat guys who rushed the floor deserved what they got but could you imagine the outfall if O'Neils's punch put the guy in a coma or worse...killing him?

[/ QUOTE ]

But could you imagine the outfall if O'Neal doesn't stop the guy from getting up, giving the guy enough time to pull a knife and stab a restrained Artest?

[andyfox]

The ruling said no such thing. Stern went out of his way to place responsibility on the fans and to say the "covenant" needs to be reestablished between players and fans. He called the fans' actions "poisonous."

Which action was worse: throwing a cup at a player, or going into the stands to beat up somebody who did nothing?

[andyfox]

Well, we'll have to agree, then, to disagree on this one. O'Neill tried to get into the stands and was restrained from doing so. He then ran across the floor to cold-cock a restrained person.

Again, I'm not exonerating the fans in the least. The authorities should identify the culprits and prosecute to them to the fullest extent of the law. I don't know how it can be done, but those people should also be banned from ever attending an event at the Palace again.

The Pistons should be punished as well. The security was non-existent. The next Pacers-Pistons game should not be broadcast at all nor should any people be allowed to attend. The following Pacers-Pistons game's receipts should be donated to charity. And they should be banned from selling alcohol at their games for, oh, how about the same length as Jackson's suspension. Nor should they be allowed to ever sell alcohol after the start of the 4th quarter.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
If Artest points out the cup thrower (which, of course, he couldn't have, since he didn't see it; but the guy could certainly have been identified by others) nothing happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who was he supposed to point him out to? One of the cops that was there trying to keep order? Oh, wait, there were no cops near the area. How about a rent a cop? Hmmm, haven't noticed any of them around either. The Palace totally blew the security on this one.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
The NBA collective bargaining agreement more or less outlines what the league can do to discipline players. You can argue ad infinitum about the fairness or unfairness of Artest's suspension it doesn't matter whether it was fair or not. The commissioner has the power and authority to impose the discipline he sees fit to administer within the rules of the player agreement. The bottom line is that Artest is accountable for his actions and when he goes up in the stands he's tempting fate. He made a concious choice and the potential draconian punishment that results from making that choice that the commissioner can render is well known to the players. It's part of the agreement they made in playing. I tried to explain Stern's reasoning (as I interpret Stern's comments) and you don't want to accept it fine. I support Stern you don't but Stern has the power and authority to do that and the players have a process for appealing Stern's ruling, it's a process the players including Artest have agreed to. If the players don't like the process hold out when their contract expires for something different. I guess I don't understand why all the hand wringing for Artest when the league has a clear collective bargaining agreement with the players that outlines the process for the commissioner administering discipline.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why doesn't it matter if it's fair? If things like that didn't matter nobody would talk about sports at all. I don't think ANYBODY that has any sense at all thinks Artest should be given a pass. What is causing debate is how much is just in this situation. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't make it right.

Just because I don't agree with his reasoning doesn't mean I don't accept it. I know what the process is. I know they have a CBA outlining everything possible. My opinion is Stern went overboard. If he uses a random method to determine suspensions is that fair? Nothing in the CBA against it so I guess it's OK then. While not quite to that level, his decision to totally throw out all precedent and give a punishment that is way beyond anything seen before is not fair.

I think it's interesting that the PA has already made a point about changing the disciplinary procedures when the CBA expires at the end of the season. This was an issue with the PA before this big mess even happened.

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't stop the timeline to where it fits your agenda.

His stupid attempted hard foul with a big lead and 45 seconds left was what started it all. That's just acting like a punk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't you stopping the timeline to fit your agenda? It's a basketball game, you get fouled. Why not blame it on Brown for leaving Wallace in a game that was clearly over. Why have your star player on the court in this situation? How about Carlisle? He had Artest out there with nothing to gain. Wait, how about Scott Pollard? If he's not hurt, then Carlisle has a sub to put in for Artest and this never happens. How about the Pistons player that fouled Jackson on a 3 on 1 the play before when the outcome of the play didn't matter? Maybe that led Artest to fouling Wallace.

Wallace incited the riot. Wallace created the situation and wouldn't let it go. Wallace was a total punk. Does this get Artest off the hook? Not in the least.

[andyfox]

Agree completely on the Palace security. But the primary reponsibility for the riot rests with Artest who went overbaord when hit by a cup.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you stopping the timeline to fit your agenda?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Wallace incited the riot. Wallace created the situation and wouldn't let it go. Wallace was a total punk.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL! I guess no amount of logic will work. I'm done debating this with people like yourself. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Drac]

[ QUOTE ]
ROFL! I guess no amount of logic will work. I'm done debating this with people like yourself. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Where was your logic? You gave your opinion but opinion doesn't equal logic. I know my opinions aren't always logical. You don't think Wallace escalated the situation with his behavior? And what exactly are people like myself? People that think that Artest deserved a harsh punishment for his actions but think Stern went overboard? I found it interesting you talked about stopping the timeline to make it work for you then did exactly that. It seemed you were contradicting yourself.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
It seemed you were contradicting yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

Appearances can be deceiving.

[Drac]

What a well thought out reply. Thanks!

[Sundevils21]

I think examples should be made out of the players and the fans.
Players should get huge suspensions and lose a lot of money.
The way out of line fans should get season tickets revoked, fines, and possibley spend a night or two in jail.

Extreme punishements.

I agree with CM's point about babying the fans and letting them get away with murder. Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.