The Suspensions

[Boris]

The rumor is 20 games for Jackson and O'Neil, 30 games for Artest.

Seems reasonable to me.

[Edge34]

I won't argue as long as Ben Wallace ends up with AT LEAST 10. I mean, anything less than that is to totally ignore his role in keeping the player battle going and, in turn, inciting the fans of what is really HIS team. Without him, the Pistons are nothing but a bunch of undersized role-players, except Rasheed. And I don't think you'd find many who disagree with me.

[nothumb]

I definitely disagree with you. Wallace didn't make that fan throw anything, nor did he force Artest to go into the stands. If Artest had the stones to stand up to Wallace instead of a five foot ten nerd in glasses, it would have ended much faster - with his punk ass getting laid out.

I think ten might happen for Wallace just because of how ugly things turned out, but if nothing had happened beyond the shoving and shouting (i.e. fans had reacted just the same as they usually do, by staying in the stands and not lobbing crap at the players) this would be at most a 3-gamer.

NT

[Richard Tanner]

I would actually agree to this as a compromise to end this. However Detroit must also pay as a franchise. I mentioned in another thread limiting their ticket sales to 5,000 people for a large amount of games or something similar.

Cody

[Edge34]

If it hadn't gone farther than the pushing and shoving, there wouldn't be ANY suspensions, becuase none of the stuff that happened afterwards would have.

Wallace didn't MAKE anybody do anything, but neither did Artest. But to ignore Ben's role as the instigator of the entire thing - and let's not kid ourselves, fans react to their star player and his emotions, and that's Wallace for the Pistons - is undeniable. The fact is, and video shows, Artest WAS the bigger man, which means he had big enough stones not to start something he couldn't finish. And don't tell me the foul was cheap; it was hard, but it wasn't ANYTHING by NBA standards (and even less if it was a guy like Shaq, who gets mugged nightly).

Richard, I'll put my response to you here as a bundle. The league should just stop selling alcohol at games. Sure, this will be a minor economic hit, but they're already making a killing off the jerseys and tickets, and the TV deals they have don't suck either. I don't think they need to penalize Detroit's fans by saying only 5,000 can come, although that MIGHT get them to think about being more responsible. I'll think about it and post again when I've gotten a little sleep...

[nothumb]

1. It was a stupid, cheap, unnecessary foul. If someone did that to me in a game that wasn't close I would be very angry, and I am by no means a soft player. It was no doubt exacerbated by the history of these teams, but it was a cheap shot without a doubt.

2. Regardless of whether fans threw things due to Wallace's actions, he is not responsible for their actions. Who knows? Maybe the guy threw something because he thought Artest was acting like a douche by lying on the scorer's table. This is precisely the reason why legally and ethically we cannot hold someone responsible for anyone's actions but their own or those of people in their custody. While we can speculate to a great degree that Wallace played a large part in the fan's decision, we cannot hold him (Wallace) responsible for it.

In hockey, if you start a fight with someone on purpose, you can get an instigator penalty and get tossed. But if you start a fight with someone and a fan decides to start a brawl in the stands concurrently, that's his own damn problem. The problem in the current case is the fans. Not the players. There have been thousands of shoving and shouting matches like this one. Do you suppose we should have suspended all those players for 10 games apiece? No.

3. You have a Pacers symbol in your avatar.

NT

[Richard Tanner]

Edge's symbol has nothing to do with his point, never has he said that Artest should get nothing because he likes the Pacers, but rather he's supported his opinions with facts. In the other post there was a Detroit fan that said that this was a good thing because it would weaken the Pacers enough to allow Detroit to finish with a better record.
I hope the difference between the two is clear.

Cody

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't argue as long as Ben Wallace ends up with AT LEAST 10. I mean, anything less than that is to totally ignore his role in keeping the player battle going and, in turn, inciting the fans of what is really HIS team. Without him, the Pistons are nothing but a bunch of undersized role-players, except Rasheed. And I don't think you'd find many who disagree with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: While I'm a Knicks fan, Wallace is on my fantasy team.

The problem with giving Wallace 10 games is that there's no precedent for suspending a player for that long for shoving someone.

While it might be "right" to suspend him for that long in some abstract sense, collective bargaining agreements aren't about being "right." The players union is going to see punishing Wallace with a huge suspension as a violation of the agreements they have with the league about player suspensions, and they're going to fight it.

While it seems unfair to hurt the Pacers so much more than the Pistons with these suspensions for an incident in which both teams were responsible, there's precedent for how Wallace should be punished that will be hard to buck. The Pacers players, on the other hand, aren't going to have a lot of precedent to protect themselves with. They pretty much came up with a whole new infraction the league has to punish.

Fair or not, this is going to end up hurting the Pacers a lot more than the Pistons.

scrub

[Clarkmeister]

It's way too long for Jackson and particularly O'Neil. I'm ok with it for Artest, though I think it should be closer to 20-25 games for him.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
It's way too long for Jackson and particularly O'Neil. I'm ok with it for Artest, though I think it should be closer to 20-25 games for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss O'Neil running up from nowhere to land a huge punch to some guy on the court, I think he should get the biggest suspension over Artest and Jackson

[Edge34]

Sponge, as soon as a fan crosses the line and sets foot on the court, they're subject to whatever happens. The fans stay on their side, the players will stay on theirs...

Well...most of the time...

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's way too long for Jackson and particularly O'Neil. I'm ok with it for Artest, though I think it should be closer to 20-25 games for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss O'Neil running up from nowhere to land a huge punch to some guy on the court, I think he should get the biggest suspension over Artest and Jackson

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything that happened *on the court* is totally fair game. If you're a fan and you step onto the court, you assume all risk. Just as if you are a player and you go into the stands, you get hammered by the league. O'Neil went into the stands, and deserves a suspension for it, but his role there was mostly to get his boys safely back to the court.

[mmbt0ne]

Has anyone seen video of what happened with that guy before the O'Neal punch? I have no clue what might have led up to it.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone seen video of what happened with that guy before the O'Neal punch? I have no clue what might have led up to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just saw a good replay of it on Fox. He was trying to start a fight with one of the Pacers' assistants. He pushed him and tried to throw a punch, but the assistant pushed him on the floor. That assistant had been pulled away from the guy a split second before Jermaine came in. The replay shows that the guy totally deserved it.

[mmbt0ne]

Thanks. I knew it wasn't the guy who came at Artest, but I didn't know anything else.

[hoyaboy1]

After Artest punched the 1st guy on the court, this guy ran in and went to cover what was presumably his friend. Then the coach started hitting him, he tried to get up, and O'Neal clocked him.

And what world are you guys living in where players have the right to punch anyone who is on the floor? Get a clue. They will pay for those actions in court and in the league.

[Sponger15SB]

I disagree, O'Neil came charging from nowhere just to hammer the guy, there was absolutely no need for it.

It was completely different than the guy who ran up to Artest on the court.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Without him, the Pistons are nothing but a bunch of undersized role-players, except Rasheed. And I don't think you'd find many who disagree with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't Ben Wallace essentially a role-player who happens to start and get a lot of minutes? Plus he is somewhat undersized as a center.

[Clarkmeister]

"And what world are you guys living in where players have the right to punch anyone who is on the floor? "

The world where those fans will get prosecuted for tresspassing. They started walking up on Artest and he very appropriately went at them. Then the coach got involved and O'Neil saw the guy who was scrapping with his coach start to get back up and he went at him. Perfectly natural, perfectly acceptible. Next time, maybe that guy won't think it's so "cool" to walk onto the court and accost a player.

[Clarkmeister]

Undersized compared to who? It's not like the league is filled with dominating centers anymore.

He does everything but score. He's less of a role player than a guy who scores and does nothing else. He's a top 25 player in the league.

[hoyaboy1]

Way to change the argument to a weak case of self-defense. Players DO NOT, legally or by NBA rules, have free reign to punch people who come onto the court.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Way to change the argument to a weak case of self-defense. Players DO NOT, legally or by NBA rules, have free reign to punch people who come onto the court.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but they were TRESPASSING!!!

Duh.

[Clarkmeister]

Sorry, but what other reason does someone have for coming onto the court other than to accost the players? And that's exactly what they did. They paid the price. It's just a shame that more "fans" didn't pay the price.

[Clarkmeister]

"Yeah but they were TRESPASSING!!!"

I bet they won't do it again.

[mmcd]

If an away team's players goes up into the stands, they should get the [censored] beat out of them. If a fan goes down on the court/field, they should get the [censored] beat out of them.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
If an away team's players goes up into the stands, they should get the [censored] beat out of them. If a fan goes down on the court/field, they should get the [censored] beat out of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

[andyfox]

So if one of the players had killed him, it would have been the fan's fault? Going onto the court was wrong. Going over to land a haymaker from twenty feet away was wronger. The only reason the fans went onto the court was because the players had first gone into the stands.

I don't understand your feeling about Jackson either. Let's give Artest, for the sake of argument, an excuse for going into the stands: something was thrown at him. (Unbelievably, Mike Dunleavy said it was very dangerous: that cups, according to him, could have caused "brain damage" to Artest. Even considering the delicacy of Artest's brain, this seems to be stretching things a bit.)
What was Jackson's reason for going into the stands? To protect Artest? Strange way of protecting him, what he did in the stands.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
If an away team's players goes up into the stands, they should get the [censored] beat out of them. If a fan goes down on the court/field, they should get the [censored] beat out of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah lets just turn the world into a big royal rumble, in fact I think I'm gonna go beat the [censored] out of one of my roomates for coming into my room and drinking some of my milk, brb.

[mmbt0ne]

Who's to say that Jackson didn't go into the stands to bring Artest back onto the court, and then felt the need to go after the fan who threw something at his teammate from close range?

[andyfox]

An attitude of thuggery. If Stern has any guts, he'd put an end to this type of thinking by banning permanently a cancer on the league like Artest and his partner in crime Jackson.

Going into the stands or onto the floor is not what's important. What's important is what the player in the stands or the fan on the floor does when there. Lots of times in baseball, a dunderhead runs onto the field, sometimes with signs, sometimes as a streaker, sometimes to get on TV. They're apprehended and arrested. Do they deserve to get punched or beat up?

[hoyaboy1]

Yes. In the future, according to Clarkmeister logic, bullpens should empty and beat the [censored] out of guys who run onto the fields at baseball games.

His complete misunderstanding of legal rules is shocking.

[Plzr]

~

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's to say that Jackson didn't go into the stands to bring Artest back onto the court, and then felt the need to go after the fan who threw something at his teammate from close range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. He first went to Artest and didn't do anything vicious until after that retard tossed his drink in Artests face.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. In the future, according to Clarkmeister logic, bullpens should empty and beat the [censored] out of guys who run onto the fields at baseball games.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the Tom Gamboa incident (anyone remember that?) this is *exactly* what should happen.

[Clarkmeister]

"So if one of the players had killed him, it would have been the fan's fault?"

So if that fan had pulled a knife and killed the coach because O'Neil let him get up, what then? My extreme hypotheticals are just as valid as yours, and far more a concern to a player on the court at that moment when it's already a high adrenaline, scary and desperate feeling situation. Do you think that O'Neil, surrounded by over 10,000 enemies is supposed to stop and analyze things? Hell no, he's going to *react*, and when he sees his coach being restrained and the guy who was tussling with his coach getting up unrestrained, he damn sure has the right to come at him and knock his ass back down.

[BusterStacks]

If a player rushes into the stands and they KILL him, it's obviously the fans fault. If a fan rushes onto the court, it's clearly the fans fault for going onto the court. Either way, professional athletes are more important to society than a random fan. I mean come on, these guys represent an entire city! Fans represent nothing except a very tiny piece of a MUCH larger puzzle.

I'm not unreasonable, if Artest killed an entire stadium full of people then yes, a 30 game suspension would be understandable I guess. But for just beating the crap out of one guy? I don't know, maybe a few hundred dollar fine or something. Did you see that guy? He looked like he deserved to be hit real hard in the face. He had a goofy look, and this is a serious matter.

I wish fans would just learn that nobody cares what they think except themselves. If you're gonna start crap with people better than you in every way, then just go home. Look, if YOU (the fan) get injured, who cares, your mother? But if you injure Jermaine O'Neal, you are going to weaken a franchise! A whole city will care! Sorry fan, but unless you make millions of dollars busting your ass night after night on a basketball court (a.k.a. warzone), then we really don't care about you. You're probably ugly anyway.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. In the future, according to Clarkmeister logic, bullpens should empty and beat the [censored] out of guys who run onto the fields at baseball games.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the Tom Gamboa incident (anyone remember that?) this is *exactly* what should happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://images.ibsys.com/2002/0921/1680308.jpg

C'mon Clark you can't just go beating the [censored] out of somebody who fighting your friend and not expect to go to jail for assault. Well unless you're an NBA superstar.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of times in baseball, a dunderhead runs onto the field, sometimes with signs, sometimes as a streaker, sometimes to get on TV. They're apprehended and arrested. Do they deserve to get punched or beat up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. That'd be the end of it. Players have no way of knowing the intentions of someone coming onto the field.

[andyfox]

He was attacked by dunderheads who ran onto the field to attack him. The attackers deserved whatever they got Iand more). There's a big difference between that and a cup of water (soda?) being thrown at somebody.

[hoyaboy1]

Right. So instead of backing away, they should run over and attack them. Brilliant.

[andyfox]

If the players started attacking political protesters or streakers coming onto the field, you'd see more of them coming onto the field, not fewer.

[mmcd]

It's a fist fight. It's not like there were people taking eachother apart with chainsaws or something. Some random people that nobody here even knows get in a fist fight on tv and there's all sorts of outrage over it? Some people just take things WAY too seriously. These incidents happen every once in a while, and usually they are pretty funny. I haven't watched a regular season NBA game in years, but I watched the replay of this one on ESPN. An instant classic.
I used to have a video called "The Best Sports Brawls" or something along those lines. Very entertaining.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Those of you who think the players were out of line are pacifist pussies. There is no excuse for throwing things at players, or for going on the court/field, no excuse. Artest did not punch the nerdy white guy, he grabbed him. Fans started attacking Artest, and Artest and Jackson defended themselves. None of these players tackled a fan and beat the [censored] out of them. Every video I have seen shows a player punching a fan once(which looks like the actions of someone defending themselves). The fans were the ones taking multiple swings at the players, the fans were the ones throwing things at the players, the fans are the ones that went out on the court.

All the blame lands squarely on the shoulders of the fans.

[hoyaboy1]

Lol. Jackson was defending himself? Punching people who throw a drink at you is perfectly acceptable behavior? Athletes should run into the stands when they don't like what the fans are doing? Ok.............

[ThaSaltCracka]

no, it looked to me like Jackson went into the stands to get Artest, but then saw someone approaching Artest ready to do something to him. Jackson responded by punching the guy.