215 sng hand from Gigabet

[kfan]

I was just watching a 215 sng table at party when this hand came up.

Dealer: Game #1201403668 starts.
Dealer: Trny:7320501 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
Dealer: ** Dealing down cards **
Dealer: fujoeboo folds.
Dealer: buckydong folds.
Dealer: manpak folds.
Dealer: ccareou calls [30].
Dealer: heuycat folds.
Dealer: rikko11 folds.
Dealer: Gigabet raises [125].
Dealer: andrechiu folds.
Dealer: jgudajtes raises [205].
Dealer: freespar folds.
Dealer: ccareou folds.
Dealer: Gigabet calls [95].
Dealer: ** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, 3s, Qc ]
Dealer: jgudajtes bets [800].
Dealer: Gigabet is all-In.
Dealer: jgudajtes calls [75].
Dealer: ** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
Dealer: ** Dealing River ** [ 2h ]
Dealer: jgudajtes shows a pair of twos.
Dealer: Gigabet shows a pair of kings.
#1201403668: Gigabet wins 2250 chips from the main pot with a pair of kings.

How did he know that his kings were good? What tipped him off that the preflop re-raiser was bluffing? Ridiculous read on giga's part i think. (first post, please be nice)

[adanthar]

I would make an educated guess that he had notes on this guy from other tourneys as being a complete moron.

Failing that, I don't know that I'd have the balls to call here but the flop bet certainly doesn't seem like an ace.

[citanul]

I've been trying to make a few strange adjustments of late at the 100s and 200s, of moving to higher than first level thinking a bit more.

I've been attempting to make bets like this from time to time with say, AQ in this spot for exactly the same reason, that it screams "I don't have an ace." I'm sure others do this as well and all, so I'm siding with the idea that Giga had a note on the guy that said something to the effect of "moron."

citanul

[ZeeJustin]

He called because very few people are shoving twice the size of the pot with AK on this flop. That bet is looking for a fold.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
He called because very few people are shoving twice the size of the pot with AK on this flop. That bet is looking for a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Which is also why it's not a bad play with AK, against decent players.

eastbay

[adanthar]

A related question: What does a minreraise signify at these limits?

(A related question to the question: I've minreraised about twice in the last two months. Should I start doing that more?)

[ZeeJustin]

This play is awful against me, because I'm not decent enough to make that call =/

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Right. Which is also why it's not a bad play with AK, against decent players.


[/ QUOTE ]

This has been my exact play with AK as of late. I dont re-raise preflop, and if If hit my A or K I push. I have had great success with middle pairs calling me and Ax to boot.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
This play is awful against me, because I'm not decent enough to make that call =/

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not something I would do a lot, personally, but I might if I saw someone who consistently showed a "big bets are bluffs, small bets are monsters" mindset.

eastbay

[Gigabet]

I almost never risk all of my chips in one shot in the early levels, when the blinds are low enough to get some play. But this guy made a mistake in every part of his play, so I didn't feel like I was risking anything at all.

The right move for the guy, if he knows I am a thinking player, would be to shove all the way in with AK, when he hits the Ace,and only if he plays with me enough to make the play profitable. Obviously giving such terrible odds is a bad way to get value for what probably is the best hand. But if he plays with me enough, and knows that I can make that call, then he can do such a thing.

If he thinks that much, first off, he isn't going to reraise me from the sb, at least not that amount, his raise is kind of take the lead kind of raise, not take me off of the hand raise, kind of like he was badly representing a big pair(which usually ends up showing as a middle pair). My initial read preflop was 77 or 88, and that is one reason I didn't reraise preflop. I also wanted to keep the pot fairly small, in case I had to get away from the hand. Flop comes A high, preflop he was trying to represent a big pair, and he comes out over betting the pot, which is almost exactly my stack. This kind of play is the kind used most often when the nuts are staring you in the face, flop is paired, the guy with trips moves in, or 3 suited cards come out and he moves, hoping you don't believe him. It was a rainbow flop with no straight possibilities.

Ok, so now, I was thinking, maybe he has a set, but that is a such a tough move for a set, because then, if I have AK he may not get paid off. A tricky player who flops a set with a preflop raiser and an ace on board, will at most bet the pot here, hoping for a decent sized raise so he can get all of AK money. But the only real set he could have is 333, no one plays QQ that badly preflop.

The only hand I was only slightly nervous about was 333. And if he can get all my chips with that hand, then so be it.

[Gigabet]

If I min reraise, it almost always to buy the button, I would min reraise with AK(if the original raise was reasonable relative to my stack)in the CO to push out the button and the blinds. It is basically for position, and doubles as a free card raise.

There are only a few situations where it may be ok to min reraise out of position.

If you are up against a very tight player and you have AA, it is usually ok to min reraise him, if your stack is less than average. Or just being tricky with a thinking player, but usually trying to play that tricky just gets you in trouble. Make the guy pay the full amount, that is the idea behind raising, is it not?

On a side note, when someone min raises, it is never right to min reraise that raise. It is just ridiculous. Go play limit hold em if you want structured betting. The only thing worse than a min raise, is min reraising a min raise.

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost never risk all of my chips in one shot in the early levels, when the blinds are low enough to get some play. But this guy made a mistake in every part of his play, so I didn't feel like I was risking anything at all.

The right move for the guy, if he knows I am a thinking player, would be to shove all the way in with AK, when he hits the Ace,and only if he plays with me enough to make the play profitable. Obviously giving such terrible odds is a bad way to get value for what probably is the best hand. But if he plays with me enough, and knows that I can make that call, then he can do such a thing.

If he thinks that much, first off, he isn't going to reraise me from the sb, at least not that amount, his raise is kind of take the lead kind of raise, not take me off of the hand raise, kind of like he was badly representing a big pair(which usually ends up showing as a middle pair). My initial read preflop was 77 or 88, and that is one reason I didn't reraise preflop. I also wanted to keep the pot fairly small, in case I had to get away from the hand. Flop comes A high, preflop he was trying to represent a big pair, and he comes out over betting the pot, which is almost exactly my stack. This kind of play is the kind used most often when the nuts are staring you in the face, flop is paired, the guy with trips moves in, or 3 suited cards come out and he moves, hoping you don't believe him. It was a rainbow flop with no straight possibilities.

Ok, so now, I was thinking, maybe he has a set, but that is a such a tough move for a set, because then, if I have AK he may not get paid off. A tricky player who flops a set with a preflop raiser and an ace on board, will at most bet the pot here, hoping for a decent sized raise so he can get all of AK money. But the only real set he could have is 333, no one plays QQ that badly preflop.

The only hand I was only slightly nervous about was 333. And if he can get all my chips with that hand, then so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it is great to see your analysis of the hand at this this level. But as a poor 20's player I think if I tried this move it would be a loser. Comments appreciated

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is great to see your analysis of the hand at this this level. But as a poor 20's player I think if I tried this move it would be a loser. Comments appreciated


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this comment? Why would it be a loser?

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is great to see your analysis of the hand at this this level. But as a poor 20's player I think if I tried this move it would be a loser. Comments appreciated


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this comment? Why would it be a loser?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just that I see this play too many times with A10 - AK at my level. Am I looking for monsters were there are none?

[Gigabet]

So what you are saying is that if I was playing in a 22 tourney, and this exact situation came up, if I play out the same, the guy will have an ace?

If that is what you are saying, then I should stick to the 215s, because I would have a problem with 22s. When I have to make a play based on my limited knowledge of a player, it doesn't matter what dollar amount we are playing for.

The range of hands that I gave him had nothing to do with my knowledge of the game, it was all about what I thought his knowledge of the game was. If I thought that maybe he was a different skill level, based on what I knew about him, then I would have given him a different range of hands, based on the same bets. Probably a lot of weak aces would have been included in my range. And that different read would have kept me from calling push on the flop.

So, even if this exact situation played out in a 22 tourney, I still would have put him on the same range of hands, and still taken his stack off on the flop.

[ZebraAss]

Thanks for the heads up on you Giga...bwahahahaha.

[Miamipuck]

I am curious what in the world did the opponent hold?

Giga,
I just saw your A-A hand that knocked you out in the 100 MTT. What did you put your opponent on? because there were several opportunities to release that hand....... That was not a criticism just curious as to your thought process.

One other question:
I saw your comment at the end, what kind of notes did you make for that player. To be honest he was an idiot putting his chips at risk in that particular situation. He just hit his perfect flop.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw your A-A hand that knocked you out in the 100 MTT. What did you put your opponent on? because there were several opportunities to release that hand....... That was not a criticism just curious as to your thought process.

One other question:
I saw your comment at the end, what kind of notes did you make for that player. To be honest he was an idiot putting his chips at risk in that particular situation. He just hit his perfect flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played all day today, and I can only remember the AA hands that I lost with, but there were a lot of them, so you will have to be a bit more specific about it. Did I run into a set or a flush? I played more than one 100 multi today, and I am pretty sure, i lost them all holding AA. And I was playing S&G's at the same time, so they kind of get jumbled together in my mind as to which tourney I actually held the hand.


Do you have the hand history?

[Miamipuck]

Giga,
Sorry........To sum up the above nonsense. It was the last 100 tourny that started approx. an hour and a half ago 12:00AM EST. Your opponent flopped the nut flush holding A-7 diamonds.
Sorry, I do not have the hand history. I was watching and rooting for you. When you got knocked out, I just said that sucks and closed the damn table. Then when I was going to ask you the above questions I realized what stupid thing I did.

[kfan]

Thanks for the response. My level of thinking is no where near that, and i would have never pinned the man on any hand preflop like you did.

Because you pinned him on a medium pocket pair preflop, did his flop bet matter at all? Meaning would you have called him down no matter what he bet on that flop due to your preflop hunch? For everyone, what size bet from the opponent would make you fold your kings on the flop?

Thanks again.

[Gigabet]

I know the hand that you are talking about.

I have 2 aces, I get heads up, and the only thing I am thinking about, is getting all of his chips.

The pot is t210 when the flop comes out, I bet t275, thinking that would look like a great steal bet to the guy(who I knew nothing about), and still left enough behind me(t700) where he knows that I can still fold to a reraise. Which is what I wanted him to do. I was hoping that he was thinking he could take the pot down right there. I had hoped he had one diamond, and that would justify the move in his mind, if I happened to call.

Because I overbet the pot, I left myself no way to get any info on his hand, anything he does is going to look like a steal, because any raise will require committing his whole stack.

I played the hand this way because no one at my table had doubled through yet, and I figure if this hand works out like I want it to, I may be able to set myself up for the rest of the tourney. Being on table 3 had a lot to do with this decision, once you are the big stack at a table that isn't going to break for a long time, you have a very large advantage over the rest of the field. If you play it right, you can keep your table crippled the whole way through, and continue to reload through the new stacks that come through.

For those who don't know, the flop came 3 diamonds, and the villain had flopped the nut flush. But he played it just like he knew I wanted him too. He raised me all in and I called.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you pinned him on a medium pocket pair preflop, did his flop bet matter at all? Meaning would you have called him down no matter what he bet on that flop due to your preflop hunch?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't the size of the bet so much that makes you not call, it is how it is bet, just one bet tells you very little. For instance, if there would have been a raise, and a reraise on the flop, and they were both the "right" size for the best hand, then I would lay my KK down to any more opposition.

If he comes out firing his whole stack, I would more than likely call, thinking I have him beat. He doesn't have any idea that I have KK, and if he does flop something that can beat that hand, then he is going to want to get paid off by hands that aren't very strong. And betting your whole stack is not a good way to get paid off.

If I knew my opponent had KK and I flopped a hand that could beat that, but wasn't visible on the board, such as a set, I would push every single time. It is awfully difficult to fold an overpair to one bet when the flop is a disconnected rainbow.

[texasrattlers]

Wow. I would slow play the set, and if my opponent did have KK all the chips are going to the center one way or another. If your read was wrong (that must happen 1 out of every 100 times? /images/graemlins/wink.gif), then your all in bet will lose money with no callers. I would be interested to hear why your thinking is different from mine (other than just the fact that you are a far better player than me, as I currently play at the Stars 6+0.5 turbos).

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I would slow play the set, and if my opponent did have KK all the chips are going to the center one way or another. If your read was wrong (that must happen 1 out of every 100 times? ), then your all in bet will lose money with no callers. I would be interested to hear why your thinking is different from mine (other than just the fact that you are a far better player than me, as I currently play at the Stars 6+0.5 turbos).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why playing it fast may be better than playing it slow is a topic that you should learn about through books and such, too much to explain here. There are books out there that describe in detail different betting strategies in NL.

The part about me moving all in when I have the set, you misunderstood. I had said that I would move in on the flop if I caught a set, and KNEW that my opponent held KK Then and only then would I would push. My read is based on a range of my best guesses narrowed down to the most likely conclusion. I am never certain enough to risk that many bets that I would lose in just being wrong one time. Doesn't matter if my read is right or wrong, i am never going to take such a silly risk.

When you said that if your opponent held KK it doesn't matter if you slow play or not, all the chips eventually are going in the middle anyway, is completely false. If I see a board with KK and my opponent is willing to trade bets with me, I am keeping the action slow, I am not going to go broke when someone is willing to put money in after there are cards out. The board usually carries something pretty scary along with it, that makes one pair look very vulnerable. Especially when the other guy is more than willing to fire back at you. If I cannot slow the action down enough, then folding is the only option there. If you have KK and are still putting money in the middle on the river, then you are making a mistake.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I would slow play the set, and if my opponent did have KK all the chips are going to the center one way or another. If your read was wrong (that must happen 1 out of every 100 times? ), then your all in bet will lose money with no callers. I would be interested to hear why your thinking is different from mine (other than just the fact that you are a far better player than me, as I currently play at the Stars 6+0.5 turbos).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why playing it fast may be better than playing it slow is a topic that you should learn about through books and such, too much to explain here. There are books out there that describe in detail different betting strategies in NL.

The part about me moving all in when I have the set, you misunderstood. I had said that I would move in on the flop if I caught a set, and KNEW that my opponent held KK Then and only then would I would push. My read is based on a range of my best guesses narrowed down to the most likely conclusion. I am never certain enough to risk that many bets that I would lose in just being wrong one time. Doesn't matter if my read is right or wrong, i am never going to take such a silly risk.

When you said that if your opponent held KK it doesn't matter if you slow play or not, all the chips eventually are going in the middle anyway, is completely false. If I see a board with KK and my opponent is willing to trade bets with me, I am keeping the action slow, I am not going to go broke when someone is willing to put money in after there are cards out. The board usually carries something pretty scary along with it, that makes one pair look very vulnerable. Especially when the other guy is more than willing to fire back at you. If I cannot slow the action down enough, then folding is the only option there. If you have KK and are still putting money in the middle on the river, then you are making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what you're saying is, at the present level you play ($215s on PP), whether your read is right or wrong (does'nt matter), you never have and never will make take a silly risk?

[Gigabet]

I do silly stuff all of the time, I just don't make it a habit. You guys will love this.
This is the first hand of the tournament, and I was just dying to know his two cards.

#Game No : 1205305459
***** Hand History for Game 1205305459 *****
NL Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:7342947 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Sunday, November 21, 13:36:03 EDT 2004
Table Table 11186 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ProCappers ( $1000 )
Seat 2: roundboy764 ( $1000 )
Seat 3: Harleyman00 ( $1000 )
Seat 5: browerkid ( $1000 )
Seat 6: jackvonspade ( $1000 )
Seat 7: ComeOnPhish ( $1000 )
Seat 10: lentitcai ( $1000 )
Seat 9: JUANRAMON ( $1000 )
Seat 8: Gigabet ( $1000 )
Seat 4: jamesmon08 ( $1000 )
Trny:7342947 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Gigabet [ Jd 8h ]
JUANRAMON folds.
lentitcai folds.
ProCappers is all-In.
roundboy764 folds.
Harleyman00 folds.
jamesmon08 folds.
browerkid did not respond in time.
browerkid folds.
jackvonspade folds.
ComeOnPhish folds.
ComeOnPhish: lol
Gigabet: I am going to flat out throw 215 dollars away, I really want to see what he has here.
Gigabet is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 6c, 9d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ks ]
Gigabet shows [ Jd, 8h ] a pair of eights.
ProCappers shows [ Qh, Qd ] a pair of queens.
Gigabet finished in tenth place.
ProCappers wins 2010 chips from the main pot with a pair of queens.
ty
Gigabet has left the table.
Game #1205309432 starts.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
I do silly stuff all of the time, I just don't make it a habit. You guys will love this.
This is the first hand of the tournament, and I was just dying to know his two cards.

#Game No : 1205305459
***** Hand History for Game 1205305459 *****
NL Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:7342947 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Sunday, November 21, 13:36:03 EDT 2004
Table Table 11186 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ProCappers ( $1000 )
Seat 2: roundboy764 ( $1000 )
Seat 3: Harleyman00 ( $1000 )
Seat 5: browerkid ( $1000 )
Seat 6: jackvonspade ( $1000 )
Seat 7: ComeOnPhish ( $1000 )
Seat 10: lentitcai ( $1000 )
Seat 9: JUANRAMON ( $1000 )
Seat 8: Gigabet ( $1000 )
Seat 4: jamesmon08 ( $1000 )
Trny:7342947 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Gigabet [ Jd 8h ]
JUANRAMON folds.
lentitcai folds.
ProCappers is all-In.
roundboy764 folds.
Harleyman00 folds.
jamesmon08 folds.
browerkid did not respond in time.
browerkid folds.
jackvonspade folds.
ComeOnPhish folds.
ComeOnPhish: lol
Gigabet: I am going to flat out throw 215 dollars away, I really want to see what he has here.
Gigabet is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 6c, 9d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ks ]
Gigabet shows [ Jd, 8h ] a pair of eights.
ProCappers shows [ Qh, Qd ] a pair of queens.
Gigabet finished in tenth place.
ProCappers wins 2010 chips from the main pot with a pair of queens.
ty
Gigabet has left the table.
Game #1205309432 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, some people got it like that where they can throw away $215 to view two cards (more power to you). let's hope that Phill S does'nt come up in here saying that you have major leaks in your game.

*thanks for the hand analysis though, it's very helpful to one's game when they get to see a player like you describe how you evaluate why do did what you did*

[tigerite]

I did something similar earlier at the $33 level with QJs to see what some kook who went all-in had. It was 77. Unfortunately he hit another one on the turn.

[citanul]

this is much less worth it at basically any other level besides the 215 level, since the player pools are much, much larger, and you are less likely to be able to take advantage of this sort of information again later.

in giga's example, he stood to make likely future gain from his play (maybe), in yours, you were just paying money to see cards.

citanul

[Chasinjason]

I really doubt giga was doing it for a future gain. I'd imagine he did just do it for kicks and to see his cards the same as the qj did.

- chances are anyone making this play won't be at the 200's too long.

- I'm sure if he played his normal game by the end he would know what type of hand the guy was moving with.

[tigerite]

Actually I've seen the guy at least twice before and this is what prompted my play, I knew he was a moron..

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
I did something similar earlier at the $33 level with QJs to see what some kook who went all-in had. It was 77. Unfortunately he hit another one on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised that either of you paid off these kooks. I'm not nearly as good or successful as Gigabet, but whenever I see someone go all-in to win t25 in blinds, I almost always assume they have medium pocket pairs. This play is usually made by some fish who is tired of seeing his Jacks busted, so he doesn't want to see the flop, but doesn't want to lose with what he knows is the best hand. I love to bust these guys with Kings, though the opportunity doesn't come around often enough.

-Z