totally confused and totally frustrated

[JJKillian]

I feel as though I am playing good. I re-evaluate a lot of my sng's and I find some possible mistakes but not a lot that put me out of it. I have been playing poker now for going on 6 years. I am a profitable B&M player. I play 10/20 and 20/40 once in ahwile. And do very well in local B&M tournaments. I also do very well in online tournaments. But the sng's are killing me.

I currently am sitting at 21 in a row out of the money. I would love to sit here and question the legitimacy of party. But obviously that isn't the case or else this forum wouldn't exist. And my tournament record on party wouldn't be good.

I have tried to follow the guide from here to the tee, that isn't helping.

Is there some adjustment I am not making that someone else has had a problem with in the past in going from B&M to online? Or am I just on the worst run ever?

I play 10/20/30 sngs.

thanks in advance

JJ

[lorinda]

Are you playing NL sit 'n' goes?

It might be worth moving to LHE ones for a while and still applying the "Tight early/Aggressive late" type strategy in a format you feel more comfortable with.

When you have more confidence then move to NL.

Just a thought, your long term ROI will be lower in LHE but it might be better learning the format in a game you are more used to.

Lori

[Phill S]

all i can suggest is that you post one or two of your hand histories for an entire tourney.

21 OTM is a huge figure, even for a losing player (no offense meant, i didnt mean you specifically).

most likely you arent making correct judgement moves on the bubble, or your overagressive post flop. but i dont know for sure cos i have nothing to go off.

again, all i can suggest is that you post some tourneys on here. someone who has a lot of experience winning that level will help you out im sure.

Phill

[McMelchior]

It is very hard to say anything meaningful about your situation without more detailed knowledge.

What levels SnGs do you play, what's you strategy early one, mid and later, do you bubble out or are you the first one to go, what time of day and what days do you play?

Generally MY problem when I once in a while tank 5 - 6 SnGs in a row seems to be too loose/too aggressive play early on. The answer for me has several times proved to be to start playing tight, tight, tight, and avoid those perceived coinflips for all of my chips basically until I'm ITM - too frequently my hands turns out not to be coinflips but dirty dogs.

I'm a Stars player and I'm aware the optimal strategy for Party's SnGs is somewhat different. Generally after 21 straight out of the money I'd recommend a weeklong break to regroup. You might be in a self-defeating rut.

Better luck!

Best, McMelchior (Johan)

[JJKillian]

actually while I wrote that I finally broke the streak with a win.

I play on 2 different computers so will have to get my hand histories together.

I do get a ton of 4ths. I play very tight early on. When I get to 4/5th I get a lot more aggressive. either 3xbb or just pushing cause it is more than 1/2 my stack. Lots of bad beats as of late, and worse pushing with a/7-10 and running into high pp's or a/j-k. Just bad luck on those.

One $20 comes into mind last night. This is probably way to aggressive. 200/400 blinds. utg w/4 players left. 2200 in chips, first is 2300 in chips, 3rd is 2k, 4th is 1500 or so. I push leader calls me with a/3 and I lose. Don't care about the bad beat that happens. But is that a proper push?

[JJKillian]

understand what your saying here if I was a ring game player going to NL. But I have no problems in local NL tournaments. Or online tournaments for that matter.

Won a wsop seat for next year through a set of local tournaments. And my ROI on online tournaments is very good. Qualified for million tournament on 12/11 and for Aussie qualifier as well (640). Have a 2nd and a 5th in $5 entry. 11th and 18th in $10 entry. 8th and 22nd in $20 entry. And numerous 70-120ths in 5's - 30's entry.

And am actually ranked 340th on the month on party because of all those.

I will say this though I find $5 party tournaments one of the easiest things going. So many fish in the first hour. Not sure if people just don't care about the $5 and want to try to 4x early on or what.

JJ

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

One $20 comes into mind last night. This is probably way to aggressive. 200/400 blinds. utg w/4 players left. 2200 in chips, first is 2300 in chips, 3rd is 2k, 4th is 1500 or so. I push leader calls me with a/3 and I lose. Don't care about the bad beat that happens. But is that a proper push?

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you have?

[Gigabet]

I once went 24 consecutive without getting ITM. I looked at my hand histories for that period, and I thought I played every one of them great. These were all 215s, so there may be a little more variance, but I think if you play enough, that is about your biggest losing swing you will have, if you can beat the game, that is.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

One $20 comes into mind last night. This is probably way to aggressive. 200/400 blinds. utg w/4 players left. 2200 in chips, first is 2300 in chips, 3rd is 2k, 4th is 1500 or so. I push leader calls me with a/3 and I lose. Don't care about the bad beat that happens. But is that a proper push?

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also what position were 3rd and 4th place in relation to you, i.e. were either of them in the blinds (I am guessing one was, but which one)? I would lean towards passing in this situation unless I had a pretty good hand.

[JJKillian]

doh forgot hand hehe. had a/9s. bb was the 1500 stack sb was the 1800 or so stack. I was utg and big stack to my left.
Figured a/9s was good enough to push with from there. BB seemed as though he was just trying to coast into 3rd from previous play.

here is actual hand. I was off with the 4th stack, couldn't remember his stack

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: JJKillian ( $2320 )
Seat 5: txamag ( $2230 )
Seat 6: XXXWADEXXX ( $990 )
Seat 9: thekid317 ( $2460 )
Trny:7309407 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JJKillian [ Ad 9d ]
JJKillian is all-In.
txamag is all-In.
XXXWADEXXX folds.
thekid317 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 2s, Kc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
JJKillian shows [ Ad, 9d ] high card ace.
txamag shows [ 5d, As ] a pair of fives.
JJKillian wins 90 chips from side pot #1 with high card ace.
txamag wins 5060 chips from the main pot with a pair of fives.

to aggressive to steal here with a 900 stack in?

[tigerite]

I would have made it t1000 to go. Especially if I felt the other big stack was weak on the flop. If he comes over the top then it also means the small stack is going to have to fold, which buys me more time.

[Cry Me A River]

I started out playing SNGs, switched to MTTs (like the blind structure and deeper stacks better) and have recently (this week) started switching back and forth (less variance in SNGs).

SNGs and MTTs are completely different games and the adjustments you need to make are absolutely huge.

In MTTs you can play a lot more drawing hands (suited connectors, suited aces and suited kings) due to the deeper stacks and slower blinds. It's also a lot more possible to keep building your stack and stay ahead of the blinds due to the amount of chips in play - If you bust someone out, there'll be someone else to replace them. In an SNG you pretty much have to be chip leader to be comfortably ahead of the blinds after the first couple levels.

An SNG is sorta like you sat out the first half of an MTT, so now you're shortstacked compared to the blinds... And so is everyone else.

Lori made a key comment the other day that was a huge, huge "lightbulb going off" for me, something to the effect that 'An SNG is a 4 player tournament but sometimes there's bumps getting there'.

In many SNGs you could just sit out until the bubble and it'd make no difference to your bubble stack and if you can hit the bubble with anywhere near T1000 you should be in fine shape since the average stack will be T2500 and there will often be a ~T4000 stack so you may well be 2nd or 3rd. Unlike an MTT you really only want to play top-10 hands until the bubble. You may occaisionally try to make things happen from the button/late position if there's a zillion callers but generally you need to be tight, tight, tight until the bubble.

An SNG bubble is also very different - In an MTT, the maniacs and really bad players are usually gone by the time the bubble rolls around (or they've settled down). You'll occaisionally get someone who went on a big rush with multiple all-ins but they're usually not used to getting this far or playing with a big stack so they're pretty easy to deal with and seldom make it very far past the bubble.

In an SNG a couple big hands can give anyone the chip lead, so it's not unusual for the other three players on the bubble to be the worst in the tournament and in particular a big stack on the bubble often indicates a really bad player who got lucky with some marginal all-ins or outright suck-outs.

This requires a big adjustment in your bubble play. You're likely to be facing much more laggy players on the bubble than in an MTT and your steals are much more likely to get called. On the other hand, you're also likely to be facing much more tight/passive players than an MTT - Passive play in an MTT will get you blinded down and crippled, but you can often sit-out and make the bubble with a healthy stack in an SNG.

Basically, MTTs tend to filter out the extremes of player types, while SNGs tend to select for the extremes - Extreme LAGs and rocks tend not to make it to crunch time in MTTs while the opposite is (often) true in (low-buyin) SNGs.

So you need to be much more aware of what you're doing with steals - Reads on players and table texture are important because you're just as likely to be playing against complete rocks who'll fold anything to a raise except big pairs or complete maniacs who'll defend their blinds with any two.

If you're trying to steal from LAGs, you need to tighten your stealing requirements considerably. And against a big-stack LAG only steal with hands you don't mind playing with for your whole stack because he will be more than happy to put you in.

If you're playing against tight blinds, you do not need to push to steal unless you're short stacked versus the blinds. A 3X BB raise is usually enough and sometimes 2X will do it. You don't want to commit more because eventually they will play back at you, but only with a big hand and you will usually get the worst of it when they do. So make sure your raises are "expendable". Obviously, this is going to depend on the blinds and your stack size, but if you have ~T1000 and the blinds are 50/100 or 75/150 you don't want to be push-stealing if 3X BB will take the blinds. (If you have to push to take them, then obviously you have to push to take them but knowing at what point you're going to get played back at is key here).

The skills required to succeed at SNGs are 80% bubble play, 15% heads-up play and 5% everything else.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]

to aggressive to steal here with a 900 stack in?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say so, yes. I hate the wussy min raise as much as the next guy, but once the blinds get big you see players folding their blinds to a min-raise all the time, so why not use it yourself? (I think you need a real read to do 2X BB though because absent a read you're likely to get re-raised by any 2 and then you have a tough decision)

The other thing to consider is that a push always looks like a steal while a 2-3X BB raise can look like you want callers particularly if you have a table image or have shown down some hands. In addition a lot of players would rather play for a coin-flip and the chance to be the big stack or bust out than take the chance of having to play with the small stack.

So, sometimes, a push is actually more likely to get called than a moderate raise.

This is a tough situation since the three of you are so close. If you bet T1000 and have to get away from the hand then you are in big trouble - You'll have T1320 with the blinds hitting you next so you'll blind out before the short stack. So it's going to be very dificult for you to get away from this hand after a solid raise and if you do, you're going to be in tough.

IMHO, shorthanded A9s is a strong enough hand that I don't mind seeing a flop but I don't really want to be putting my whole stack in. Given that you're in the CO there are 3 players to act so unless I have reads here (ie: everyone's been auto-folding) I'm probably just smooth calling and attacking any favorable flop (delayed steal) particularly with position against anyone but the button. Or I'm raising 2XBB if I think that will buy me the blinds. In other words, I'm playing this very carefully. If the short stack was bigger, or if the three of you didn't have each other covered (basically) or if I really didn't want to see a flop with this hand I'd be more aggressive but in this kind of situation I'm apt to be very, very cautious.

Because of the stack sizes I don't think this is clear cut and I expect a lot of players would agree with T1000 or the all-in.

[JJKillian]

Actually I think this post here plus the other about my example hand pretty much wrap it up.

I play wrong for sng's. It would make sence why I am doing well in MTT's and local stuff, and not in sng's. I am playing my medium pairs and connectors on the button to aggressive I think. And I think my bubble play is way to aggressive.

The example of your ending people really put things into perspective. And like your analogy (even though it was someone elses quote) about it basically being a 4 person tournament.

Think I will tone down the aggression in the first few lvls. Maybe going up slightly with it each lvl. Seeing a ton of bad beats also points to the fact I am playing wrong early on.

One hand I am having a problem with in sngs is a/ks. I know how I play it ring, and mtt, and local. But in the more laggy atmospheres of lower end sngs betting a flop like 2d 6h 3s has really been hurting me. With position I usually play as though I hit something if checked to me. But I consistantly get called down by a a/6, k/6 or someone hitting a pair and inside straight draw. So not overly sure how to get away from this other than get away from my hand in lvls 1-3. Is that right thinking?

JJ

[pshreck]

The key with AK is to get it heads up for the flop. If you miss and its 3 or more handed, then you can ONLY bet if you are in position and it is checked to you. If its 4 handed I probably dont bluff at all. AK isnt a hand that is so powerful every hand... but there are tons of times where you and an opponent will both flop an A or K, and you will take their stack. Dont get frustrated if you arent picking up a pot every time you have it... it simply wont happen.

[Cry Me A River]

Yeah, it's really easy to overplay AK early in an SNG. You're just not going to win that many big pots with it to justify risking a substantial portion of your stack pre-flop. There's always someone in the early levels more than willing to gambol on junk and even if they're playing trash like sooted queens you're just not far enough ahead to risk your stack:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=363998
pokenum -h ah kh - qs 7s
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah Kh 1113933 65.05 590429 34.48 7942 0.46 0.653
Qs 7s 590429 34.48 1113933 65.05 7942 0.46 0.347

Sure, you're ahead 2:1 and doubling up is nice, but in the long run doubling up early in an SNG seldom makes all that much difference but all the times you bust out sure do...

My personal preference is to raise 3X BB or T100, whichever is larger (a T60 raise in level 1 never gets anyone to fold). You're usually still going to get plenty of callers in the first few levels so you have to be carefull if the flop doesn't hit you. You're really just ramming and jamming (pumping the pot) for the times when you do get an uncordinated A-high or K-high flop. Otherwise you're probably behind some rinky-dink pair.


In the early levels, if you can pick up some small pots, that's fine. If you flop the nuts and can double-up, that's great. But generally speaking it's top-10 all the way - Sure, I'll play 9Ts on the button with 8 limpers but otherwise I'm folding, folding, folding. Same with pockets 9 or below. I'll fold 99 UTG all day in early levels. (If I've built a bit of a stack, then I'll open up a little and play some prospective hands but I'll tighen up again if my stack starts to drop back down). And nothing fancy post-flop! You're just never going to bluff out 5 LAGs...

All of which is subject to modifcation based on table texture and individual reads. If you find yourself at a super-tight, super-passive table where you can actually steal in the early levels then obviously you should adjust. But, generally speaking, you only want to play your best hands until the blinds start to mean something. The risk/reward simply is not there on the early levels and because the blinds raise so quickly (compared to MTTs) any chips you loose early are going to come back to haunt you as you run into blind trouble.

One last thing I was meaning to mention:

[ QUOTE ]

I play 10/20/30 sngs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jumping around buy-in levels is seldom a good thing. You're apt to feel contemptuous of the buy-ins below what you perceive your abilities to be and underestimate your opponents. Or you're likely to be playing scared money at the buy-ins above your bankroll/skill comfort level. Or both.

It's really, really wise to stick to a a level your bankroll can handle and then when you're crushing it and you've built enough bankroll to then move up.

[JJKillian]

I have tonned down the "outplaying people" at the 10/20 lvl now. Last few days have been really good. Just over 60% itm. 37% ROI on the 10's and 33% on the 20's.

I agree with the jumping around. But I kind of put it weird in my first post. I have been sticking to the 30x rule for buy in's. My bank roll can handle the 200's if I wanted it to. But wanted to work my way through the lvls anyway. So went from 10 to 20 to 30 in a few months. Then came the nasty streak so I moved back down to 20's. Then came a more nasty streak so back to the 10's. hehe. I don't randomly pick them daily or anything like that. Totally agree different abilities at each would mess ya up. Especially if you are doing 4 or so at a time.

I was trying nl 100 or nl 50 and a 20 or 30 at the same time. That was messing me up also because of ring/sng at same time.

In all these posts have helped me a ton. Just basically trying to out play at wrong lvl/buy-in. Then doing it to much even at the right lvl/buy-in.

Thanks for the input guys/gals

JJ