Pacers Pistons Ending

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Wow.

[Boris]

no kidding. The players should be able kick some ass when people throw [censored] at them.

[Bobby Digital]

Boo hoo, artest got hit by a plastic cup. Maybe he should go for the ball next time and then stay out of the stands. I'm sure he'll have a nice vacation and can now promote his rap CD. Nice rivalry going now /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[NLSoldier]

That was freakin sweet! Did you guys see the chair that got thrown!

[theBruiser500]

Anyone have a link to a video?

[Sponger15SB]

[censored] that artest should be going to jail.... c'mon who is more threatening a 6'6" guy who is all muscle or some nerdy, tiny white guy.

[NLSoldier]

Meh, Artest got shoved by Wallace and didnt retaliate, and instead pulled the sweet move (imo) of laying on the scorers table. He only reacted after a beer was thrown at him. I dont think he will be going to jail.

[dseiko]

The worst part was Artest didn't even go after the guy that threw the beer at him.

[andyfox]

So he can pound on a guy for throwing beer at him? Then the next guy apparently just said something to him.

Artest and Jackson should be kicked out of the game permanently.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]

So he can pound on a guy for throwing beer at him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely yes.

[andyfox]

Absolutely not. Artest was laying down, how did he know who threw it anyway?

I'd be surprised if there was no jail time and if he's allowed to play at all this year. Stern should kick him and Jackson out of the league.

The fans were disgraceful. The players were beyond disgraceful. All should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[BeerMoney]

NBA players are pansies... They are not tough. 95% of guys in the NHL could beat the snot out of 95% of guys in the NBA.

[Regulator]

I would be the first one to say that the NBA is full of thugs these days, but why should anyone be subjected to being showered with beer or have objects thrown at them while they're working. Next time some you are at a poker table, I'll come up and drench you with beer and shout expletives at you. We'll see if you can turn the other cheek.

The problem is that people have such a "reality show" mindset now, that everyone wants to do something shocking and get on TV. So these punks at the game want their 15 minutes of infamy and do stupid stuff like throw beer at a player.

There is also no reason whatsoever for that chubby dude in the Detroit jersey to have been on the floor. He got exactly what he deserved. What are the players supposed to do when some jackass walks on the court, wait to get stabbed like Monica Seles or get attacked like the Royals' first base coach?

[Boris]

C'mon Andy. It was a stupid little beer. Why not let them settle the dispute mana a mano? why inflict so much economic damage and clog up the courts with this nonesense. I think its entirely reasonable to expect that if you throw a beer on somebody you should be prepared to throw down.

[andyfox]

I think it's entirely unreasonable. There's a right way and a wrong way to deal with it. Running into the stands to deck someone is wrong. Again, we're not even sure if the first person Artest hit was the culprit. The guy he hit who was on the floor just said something to him.

[banditbdl]

Just saw the footage. Looks like those fans got exactly what they were looking for.

[andyfox]

"What are the players supposed to do when some jackass walks on the court"

What are the fans supposed to do when some jackass runs into the stands and decks somebody?

[billyjex]

It's hard for any person to not retaliate for having beer thrown on them.. and I know these guys think they're thugs, but they gotta show some restraint.

And the crowd, we'll, they start seeing their buddies get beat up and they're going to fight back. Jermaine O' Neal completely ran up on some guy and threw a punch when the fight was over and he didn't need to be there, even if they guy had just fought with Artest.

On ESPN they are saying the players had every right to fight back, but we're talking national TV, we're talking a beer being thrown on you. That does not mean you can go beat up some guy who you THINK threw it on you. After that, the Pistons fans are going to throw every thing they can at the Pacers.. I probably would have too.

[Edge34]

The fans should have more class than to be throwing beer and other garbage at the fans. As it was said before, nobody should have to deal with that while they're working, and there's only so much taunting a person can put up with. When it comes to being assaulted, whether by beer in the Palace or by batteries in New York, the people who get retaliated against get what they are asking for.

I'm a pacers fan but I haven't yet seen the tape. I'll be watching Sportscenter the rest of the night and wait to judge how long Artest and Jackson should be gone for. Permanently Andy? I haven't even seen it and unless Artest sent the guy to the ICU, that's a little overboard.

-Edge

[namknils]

Wow is a good word. I have no idea what to say to this. I've only seed some of the coverage that they just showed during half time of Sac/Meph. As far as I can tell it could have all been avoided if Artest had a head on his shoulders, what kind of idiot explodes like that? He didn't have to go after anyone, and shouldn't have. The guy who threw the beer would have definatley been kicked out and probably more. After the $*** hit the fan some of the other players were ok to defend themseleves. But the bottom line is it all could have been avoided if Artest wasn't a nut case.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest and Jackson should be kicked out of the game permanently.


[/ QUOTE ]

No way is that going to happen. Did you listen to the announcers and analysts. They were pretty much 100% behind the players.

[namknils]

I wouldn't care if Artest got permanently banned. He's a cancer to the league.

Artest clearly could have prevented the whole thing by keeping his head, you'll be able to see when you see the footage.

Also, if I was the guy that Artest came after I would definately be suing.

[andyfox]

Indeed, the fans were idiots. Anyone who throws drink at a player should be prosecuted. It shouldn't be tolerated.

But the wrong thing to do is to go into the stands and deck somebody. Artest might not even have had the right guy. The second guy he hit, the guy on the court, it looked to me just said something to him. Artest has a history of exploding, breaking Michael Jordan's rib, trouble with his ex-girlfriend, the incident at Madison Square Garden, he's gone through anger management therapy twice.

Nobody was in danger until Artest went into the stands. You get up from the table, you find out who threw the cup, and the guy is taken out by the police.

[West]

Maybe if you made them all wear skates..

[andyfox]

Certainly the players' union wouldn't let a permanent ban occur. I imagine they'll be suspened for the rest of the year. (Artest and Jackson)

The announcers are entitled to their opinions. There is no defense for going into the stands to hit somebody because he threw a cup of liquid at you.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine they'll be suspened for the rest of the year. (Artest and Jackson)

[/ QUOTE ]

I really highly doubt it will even be close to that. I can see maybe half the season, if that. Also, if you suspend Artest then I think you have to suspend Wallace as well. It was Wallace that started the whole thing by shoving Artest, and Artest surprisingly didn't even retaliate to him. I know Wallace did't go into the stands, but did you see him with his fists up ready to fight in front of the scores table?

[andyfox]

He said he was embarrassed for the league. He also said the foul by Artest was wrong with the game out of reach with only 45 seconds to go.

Yeah, OK, the foul wasn't necessary. Wallace was wrong to shove the guy in the throat and then go after him. There is no excuse for what the fans did, but Wallace bears part of the burden too.

[andyfox]

Yes, I just posted, down below, that Wallace is a major culprit. Artest actually backed off of a confrontation with Wallace, it was Wallace that egged things on. I agree that there should be a substantial fine/suspension for Wallace as well.

I believe Kermit Washington was suspended for the rest of the year when he decked Rudy T. And didn't Kareem throw a punch once? I think he broke his hand and was out for the year, don't remember what punishment he received.

[cab4656]

I watched the game. The fans were way out of line. But the players are professionals. Their health was not endangered in any way. They should not have gone into the stands. Period.

Ron Artest and Ben Wallace both need to calm down as well. There's no place for a hard foul that late in the game and Wallace did not need to do the two-handed shove to the throat.

This is a sad moment for the league. It should've been a great one - two of the best teams in the league in a nationally televised game. Instead it was an embarassment to everyone involved.

Oh, and I am a Pistons fan. Believe me, those few fans to not represent all of us. We have always had great fans, though I think our recent success has brought in some of the bad type. It was much cooler to be a fan of this team before the championship.

[Michael Davis]

I think this is a huge overreaction, although there is some merit with Artest because of his history. Franky, I think repeated flagrant fouls that appear as intent to injure is much worse than flying off the handle once and fighting with fans. And I'm not trying to minimize fighting with fans, but kicking a player out of existence for this incident is unwarranted.

-Michael

[andyfox]

You have a league that, like all leagues, needs fans. Artest has a history of violence, having once broken one of Michael Jordan's ribs. He's gone through two anger management therapy treatments. A fan throws a paper cup filled with soda at him. He goes into the stands and attacks a fan, perhaps not even the fan who threw the paper cup.

Later, a fan says something to him. He decks him as well.

This is a player you want in your league? I can't think of any reason that, should the facts be what they appeared to be on TV, he shouldn't be kicked out of the league.

[andyfox]

. . . says they will show the incidents from every angle, right after the Kings/ Grizzlies game ends.

[Michael Davis]

I'm okay with this, but it is the totality of his actions that, as you outlined, makes banishment a consideration. I really don't think Steven Jackson should be tossed for one incident.

And I'm not sure the whole fan thing is right, either. The average fan isn't you or me and I tend to think fans like this kind of stuff. I know they do. Detroit will be roundly mocked for this incident but it could have happened anywhere (except perhaps here...).

-Michael

[BottlesOf]

A riot, you say? In Detroit???

Meh....

Steven Jackson: Biggest thug ever!!!

[VBM]

that nerdy white guy deserved what he got and worse. you throw a beer in my face when i didn't do a thing to you; you better be ready for what comes back, 6'6" or no...

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
. . . says they will show the incidents from every angle, right after the Kings/ Grizzlies game ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing more details from SC, it looks like it's majorly Wallace's fault. Whats the deal with going for Artests throat?? I'm suprised Ron didn't kill him right there.

[cab4656]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. . . says they will show the incidents from every angle, right after the Kings/ Grizzlies game ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing more details from SC, it looks like it's majorly Wallace's fault. Whats the deal with going for Artests throat?? I'm suprised Ron didn't kill him right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Things like that on the court happen now and then. Yes, Wallace was out of line and he will rightly get a 2-5 game suspension, but this was primarily the fault of the fans and the players who attacked the fans.

[Boris]

I totally agree. The look on his face was priceless as he went from jeering at Artest to the realization that a big black guy was coming to beat his ass. That little punk fan didn't even come close to getting what he deserved.

[andyfox]

What did he deserve?

[Edge34]

After watching the entire incident on every angle ESPN had, here's where the blame goes, IMO:

1) Ben Wallace. That wasn't even a hard foul. You wanna play PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL? At your position? You're gonna get fouled. Then to go off and shove Artest in the throat, and when people are trying to separate you, go and throw something, Wallace should be suspended for AT LEAST as long as Artest, as he was the instigator of the whole thing.

2) Detroit's "fans". I know this wasn't all of them, but damn people, you CAN'T DO THIS STUFF. Go have another one, you freaking drunks. Ron Artest is laying on a table, so you throw a beer at him and hope not to get your ass kicked. You can't expect to attack somebody with ANYTHING and not have some form of retribution. Then you go on the court in the middle of all this and approach the targeted Pacer with what appears to be aggressive intent, you're going to get hurt. Your own fault.

3) Steven Jackson and Artest. I have a hard time blaming Steven Jackson for supporting his teammate - that's what you do. Heck, go ahead into the stands and pull Artest off fans or fans off Artest. DO NOT THROW A PUNCH. Artest, yeah, he should've stayed out of the stands, but emotions run high and things happen. Its embarrasing and a shame, but it happened.

Fans threw punches on players who hadn't thrown any. One fan threw a chair. Shame on Artest for going into the stands, but SHAME on Ben Wallace and those "fans" who turned this game into a riot. Nobody is blameless, however. I foresee about a half season for Artest, Jackson, and Wallace, most. And yes, all should get the same, because Ben Wallace's asinine actions started all this.

Damn those fans who threw beer on the players and physically assaulted them. There were children in the stadium, and those drunk bastards turned an NBA game, possibly a once-in-a-lifetime thing for some, economically, into a war zone. Detroit's team in the late 80's with Isiah and Laimbeer was known to be pretty dirty, but the fans? A black mark on the organization and the NBA as a whole on this night.

-Edge

[GuyOnTilt]

So he can pound on a guy for throwing beer at him?

Going into the stand might not have been the smartest thing to do, but he did get assaulted. The guy threw a beer that hit him in the face when Artest was showing absolutely NO aggressive behavior. He should get his ass kicked.

Then the next guy apparently just said something to him.

Any fan who comes down ONTO the court (or field) and threatens a player should get his ass kicked by the players and coaches. After what went on only a couple minutes earlier and how the fans showed they were capable and ready to physically assault the players, there's no way they should be given the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt when they come down onto the court to confront a player. Punching him in the face was not only totally justifiable, it was the right thing to do.

Piston's fans everywhere should be ashamed.

GoT

[wuwei]

Artest needs to retire and focus on his rap career, much safer for him it seems.

[VBM]

he deserves to a trip to the emergency room to surgically remove the size 16 Nike lodged up his crapper...

[namknils]

Yeah, I agree. Never should a player go into the stands to fight.

By the way, punch of the night?....Jermaine O'Neil clocks the fat fan in the Pistons Jersey who came out on the floor. It reminded me of that clip that Salt posted last week or so.

[Boris]

Andy, Artest knew exactly who threw that crap at him. I don't see why your being so harsh. You throw a drink on somebody you should expect a fist fight.

[ QUOTE ]
Later, a fan says something to him. He decks him as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh not exactly. The punk fan was on the court walking towards Artest in an aggressive manner. Artest was totally in the right here.

[Boris]

He deserved to get his ass kicked. A broken nose would not be excessive.

[Edge34]

Jermaine lit that guy up...that's what people get for coming on the court. You don't belong in the players' house, they WILL kick you out.

-Edge

[andyfox]

I don't see how he could, laying down like that, but, for the sake of our discussion, let's assume he did. You point the guy out to the police, they arrest him. One of the guys on ESPN just said it happened to him when he played, the police asked him to press charges.

I could probably come up with some reasonable excuses for going into the stands. But getting hit by a paper cup filled with water or soda or beer isn't one of them. The incident was essentially over. Artest points the guy out and that's that.

As for the second fan, seeing it again in real time, it does indeed seem like the guy was being provocative. But Artest could still have walked away or stood his ground. What do you think about what O'Neill did to the guy?

Don't get me wrong: the fans were a disgrace and I hope that, to the extent they can be identified, they have the book thrown at them and more. (I hope some were taken into custody.) But the players, in my judgment, are the bigger culprits. No fans came out onto the floor until the players went into the stands because somebody threw a plastic cup at Artest.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
It was Wallace that started the whole thing by shoving Artest, and Artest surprisingly didn't even retaliate to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, have you ever seen Ben Wallace? I don't find this surprising at all. Ron Artest is a bully. He'll fight a TV, or his girlfriend, or take a cheap shot (like he did to Wallace), but he wouldn't square up with a guy like that. Wallace would eat his lunch.

I predict something on the order of 5 games for Wallace (wouldn't even be that much if all the other stuff hadn't popped off) and probably 10 or 15 for Artest, plus a big fine and some more visible than usual community service. Or else they'll just put him on the Zoloft, like they did Tyson.

NT

[Boris]

O'Neil took a cheapshot at the guy. The fan was already down and being restrained.

[Edge34]

If you think that foul was a "cheap shot", you clearly understand nothing about professional basketball. That was a foul, sure. Little harder than normal? Heck, I'll give you that. Cheap Shot? Hike up your skirt.

(this is not JUST directed at nothumb, but to anybody else who thinks it was cheap)

-Edge

[andyfox]

It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't smart either. There are 45 seconds left with your team up by fifteen.

Wallace's reaction to it, however, made the foul itself seem brilliant by comparison.

[Bobby Digital]

Let's see, there is less than a minute left, this basket is totally irrelevant and artest came nowhere near the ball. While not really a cheap shot it wasn't exactly clean either.

[Sponger15SB]

I agree, especially with an overly agressive defender like artest against detriots toughest player.

wallace should not have snapped like that and even it it was a cheap shot it was pretty wussy and did not deserve a shove to the thoat.

also the best punch of the night goes to the huge black dude hitting a pacers player in the back of the head a minute or so after artest came into the stands.

[mikeyvegas]

Deeeeeeeeeeeetroit, What!

[Edge34]

Andy,

You claim that the fan Artest actually DID get a shot off on (the one in the stands was a solid shove - he got held back from beating him down) was being provocative, but Artest could've held back or walked away. Judging by the emotion of the situation and the fact that the fans were MUCH more violent than the players, put yourself in Artest's shoes for a second...you have to assume this guy who's running up on you has bad intentions. Either that or you get sucker punched like Fred Jones was in the stands.


Side note: Watching ESPN's replay, I saw one police officer use pepper spray on a fan. That needed to be done a lot more liberally. Say goodbye to courtside seats, you drunk, obnoxious excuses for "fans". Even the refs were attacked, and those fans who participated in the riot should be ashamed to ever show their face around any basketball game, at any level, ever again.

[nothumb]

It was definitely a cheap shot in that he clearly fouled him with one arm and stopped the shot, and with the other arm pushed/struck him hard in the back of the head during and after the concurrent blow from the other arm.

Now, this is not a cheap shot on par with someone getting undercut and blowing out an ACL (which happened to my dad in college). There was little danger of Wallace actually being hurt. But it was a stupid, aggressive foul that really served no purpose and was pretty much the only way a guy like Artest is going to do squat to Wallace.

Was there something going on between these guys that I didn't see, earlier in the game? I only saw the footage of the incident itself.

NT

[PhatTBoll]

How nice it will be for Detriot (misspelling intended) to have several players suspended from their biggest rival for a significant amount of time. That'll teach those troublemaking fans!

F Detroit and those thug fans.

F Artest for being such a little bitch.

F Ben Wallace for going for the throat.

[West]

Tongue in cheek: how genius does Wallace look now? Maybe he gets a small suspension whereas who knows how long the Pacers top three players will all be gone after their lumberjack match with the fans.

We can't know of course what all is being said during these situations, but it does go to show what can happen when a rivalry is hot and when someone tries to take intimidation too far. The foul wasn't really that hard in comparison to others of it's kind that you see, and there have certainly been many more dangerous fouls, but IIRC, it was clear he wasn't playing the ball (of course unsportsmanlike stuff is basically an accepted part of every major professional team sport in our society). Then consider that this happened with less than a minute left and the Pacers up by 15, and as big and athletic as Ben Wallace is, he's probably thinking, I'm not going to take this [censored] from anybody.

The situation really, really got aggravated by the fact that even after Wallace had mushed Artest pretty hard, he wasn't calming down, and appeared to be instigating things further. The thing is we don't know what's being said between players there. In hindsight I'm sure the players will see that the fans were piggybacking the emotions of the players, but obviously they aren't thinking about that then. They're thinking about not wanting to take any [censored] from the other side.

[Mr. Floppy]

[censored] the Pistons and all their pathetic fans the couple fans who got the beat downs deserved what they got.....Go Pacers

[ThaSaltCracka]

this is all I am going to say, the fans at the game threw gasoline on a dying fire. I feel bad for both the Indiana Pacers and the Deroit Pistons, because many of the fans at this game caused this problem to get out of control. Truely sad, I feel even worse for Artest.

There is zero excuse for fans being on the court and zero excuse for fans to throw anything at the players, no one forget that.

[nothumb]

By the way, even though I thought Artest took a clear cheap shot, I thought it was hilarious that those fans got pounded out. Especially the guy who got the running-start-sucker-punch from O'Neal. That was money. Why in God's name would you try to pick a fight with some enormous, absurdly athletic, angry black men?

I also enjoyed the guy who kind of weakly tried to pull Artest off a fan and punched him in the head from behind - at which point Artest turned around and lit his ass up.

NT

[Mr. Floppy]

Jermaine O'Neals running punch on that fat guy was sweet. I also liked the beat downs Stephen Jackson was putting on everyone. Ben Wallace started all this because he was pissed they were gettin whipped up on like the bitches they are.....Go Pacers

[West]

What a nightmare for anyone involved in sorting this one out, whether it be police, or NBA officials handing out suspensions.

Some observations:

Ron Artest *should* have had the sense not to go into the stands. But in his defense, he just got a hard shove, in the throat, and there was obviously some verbal stuff going on. Then a beer/gatorade bottle/whatever drops out of the sky from the stands and basically lands right on his throat.

It seems to me IF you are going to defend going into the stands after a fan, you better make sure you go after the right fan (the one who hit you with something).

Throwing a drink in someone's face might really be worse than throwing a punch at them in terms of challenging their manhood. One of the camera angles really gave a good shot of a guy throwing a drink in Artest's face after he had attacked the one fan and other fans were grabbing him. I gotta wonder if that fan realized that Stephen Jackson was standing right there.

Do we know who threw that chair in the middle of that crowd, presumably at Jermaine O'Neal? How stupid do you have to be to do something like that? Forgetting about whether it's right to throw it at O'Neal, what are the odds you're going to hit him vs. one of the 30 people around him?

Stephen Jackson was ready to fight with the Pistons before the fans even got involved. It looked like he was as doing as good a job of instigating as anybody.

I don't know what that Detroit fan who ran on the court was trying to do, or what he said, but Ron Artest has already punched this guy twice I think....what was the purpose of Jermaine O'Neal sucker punching him like that? That looked REALLY bad.

I'm wondering how many fans saw that sucker punch, and whether that's why fans were going after O'Neal the way they were. One angle that I only have seen once clearly showed another guy throw a cup of water in O'Neal's face from very close by, right after he had passed by in a mob...they switched angles quickly, but I think O'Neal really wanted to get at whoever did it...of course as he went out the entrance, everyone and their mother poured stuff on him and everyone else. At first I couldn't believe it, but it occurs to me if this happened in the context of the fans having seen O'Neal sucker punch that other fan, that may have made some sense. Then again, never underestimate how ignorant people will be.

[college_boy]

Everyone was wrong..... Period

[bogey]

[ QUOTE ]


NBA players are pansies... They are not tough. 95% of guys in the NHL could beat the snot out of 95% of guys in the NBA.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeh and 95% of the people in the NBA could beat the snot out of 95% of the people in the real world

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
So he can pound on a guy for throwing beer at him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he hit the wrong guy, that's one thing. I didn't actually see it so I dunno.

But if someone threw a cup full of beer at me, intending harm&disrespect, I'd feel pretty justified in fist-[censored] their face.

[Richard Tanner]

This line of thinking bothers me to no end. NBA players are held to a high standard, if they are hit on court they must not hit back. If a fan tells them that they are going to kill their child and rape their wife, they must hold back. If a fan does anything in any way verbally abusive to hurtful to a player they must hold back. The second a fan endangers the pysical safety of a player (and yes throwing objects at a players face is potentially threatening) said player must be allowed to defend himself.
At the point Artest laid down he was showing the most restrait I've seen a player show (Artests own "sparkling" reputation aside). He was hit in the throat and simply fell back and proceded to lay upon the scorers table. The fan got exactly what he deserved, with the possible exception of further injuries. I hope is also arrested for assult.
We don't know Jacksons reason for entering the crowd but presumably it was to defend Artest (which is correct in a legal sense, not so much in an NBA sense). It is clear however, that once he was in the stands, he was attacked (his presence in the stands is not provocation for fans to being sucker punching him).
That said I believe the correct penelty is as follows:
1) Ron Artest: No punishment, self-defence
2) Stephen Jackson: 2 game suspension, I believe that this is the standard penelty for leaving the bench during an altercation.
3) Ben Wallace: 2 to 5 (whatever is consistant with NBA precedent) game suspension for throwing the punch to Artest's throat.
4) Detroit Pistons: Should be forced to restirict ticket sales for a period of games to 5,000 fans (this is of course a new punishment in the NBA but I believe that other countries have used this in Soccar games).
5) Pistons fans: whatever penelties are issues by the police of Aubern Hills.

Cody

[AngryCola]

It wasn't the nerdy white guy that threw the cup. It was the guy in the hat that ended up trying to pull him off of the nerdy guy.

Artest got it wrong, and for this he COULD be sued.

Also, the guy in the hat is clearly seen later in the footage beating the back of artest's(?) head repeatedly, before getting some action of his own.

From what I have seen and heard people saying, the fan in the hat was the one who provoked artest by throwing the drink at him. There is a reason that nerdy guy looked so surprised. He didn't realize Artest was coming for him until the last second. Why is that? Because he thought he was going after the guy standing to his right, who actually threw the cup.

This will be an important distinction once all this mess begins to get sorted out. Self defense would probably hold up against the person who threw the drink at you. It wouldn't hold up if it turns out Artest basically attacked an innocent bystander.

The look on that skinny white guy's face is one of the most amusing things I have seen in a long time. It doesn't get old, no matter how many times you watch it. All the sudden his face droops and his eyes get REAL big. The only thought running through his head at that moment was, "Oh, [censored]!" /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[tyfromm]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/juztini/Copyof1094825076757.gif

[AngryCola]

That's scary, make it go away! WTF is that?!

EDIT- Oh, I get it. It's supposed to be like the droopy faced wide eyed kid. /images/graemlins/smile.gif You'll have to excuse me, its very late. Or early, depending on who you are. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[dr. klopek]

Never once in my life have I thrown beer at someone and expected them not to even want to hit me. I do not, however, go around hitting everyone who gets a little beer on me (I would certainly have lost at least a couple of my boozin friends).

The guy who threw the beer should've known what was coming. While a lawsuit may succeed, in the real world, when the smoke and cameras disappear, he'll get the [censored] kicked out of him when he does some stupid [censored] like that again. He wouldn't have done that if he wasn't all amped up from the game and in the middle of a crowd that he thought would give him anonymous impunity. The guy that Artest hit first should have kept his god damned mouth shut. When the angry huge dude is runnin up toward you, and thinks you did what pissed him off, your false sense of security should disappear real quick. This is all so ridiculous, that's a case of a few hundred people just acting like complete [censored] retards. The two guys who came onto the court?!?!?!?!? What the [censored] was that!???!? At that point, you have to consider the fact that, justified or not, your actions, combined with the reactions of larger, stronger, angrier people are going to get you into some trouble. Ben Wallace was out of line, the frustration is understandable, but he just lost his composure. If someone came into my workplace and started to threaten and harass me, I would certainly hope that the law would be on my side if I dealt with it. Going up into the stands, however, was utterly classless. Everyone involved is guilty of being an idiot. At least the guy on the court got all [censored] up. That was totally sweet.

[Richard Tanner]

YEah I don't think a whole lot of good came from this. However I've found a math problem that I think illistrates perfectly the lesson to be learned: # of times I've been to a sporting event and thrown an object to a player of referee= # of times a player or referee has entered the stands to pummel me. IN my case it is 0=0. Wow math is useful.

Cody

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy that Artest hit first should have kept his god damned mouth shut. When the angry huge dude is runnin up toward you, and thinks you did what pissed him off, your false sense of security should disappear real quick

[/ QUOTE ]

Talking trash to a player who is aggravated may not be smart, but it's not grounds for self defense. I still think this will be a major issue. I'm not saying the lil white guy acted smart, but he may not have deserved to be attacked. Of course, that depends on your definition of "deserved".

I'm just going by what the league, cops, and lawyers will be looking at. Self-defense.

The problem will be that Artest will claim that he THOUGHT that was the fan that threw the crap at him. What the league and lawyers are likely to tell him, is that just saying "I made a mistake" will not be good enough. Mistakes like that don't hold up in court very often.

I'm not defending anyone (on purpose). Basically, I'm just trying to point out Artest could be in for some trouble if it turns out the person he attacked didn't throw the cup. It's much harder to claim self-defense, if that's the case. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Richard Tanner]

Honestly this posters opinion sickens me (please don't take this personal Andy, I'm sure you're a great guy). It seems throughout andy's posts the message is that Artest started it.
Just as it would be a mistake to fault Ben Wallace for the incident in the stands, it is also wrong to fault Artest. The fan who through the beer is at fault 100%, no Artest, no Wallace, no Stephen Jackson (although he was out of line later).
I just see this point of view as one that holds Professional atheletes up to unrealistic standards. No one should ever feel phsyically threatened at any point in their life, unless they encourage it.
Lastly, it has become more clear theat Artest did indeed strike the wrong fan. This is a sad mistake as it will likely cast doubt on an otherwise easy-to-sift-through argument. However, I vote to withhold judgment on both the fan and Artest until the actions of the fan, be they beer throwing and/or antagonizing or nothing at all) can be totally determined.

Cody

[AngryCola]

I think Artest could have diffused the situation by not running up into the stands. I'm not saying he wasn't justified, but if he had been able to remain just a little bit cooler, the resulting mayhem may not have happened. So, in a way, the responsibility of how to handle the situation was put squarely on his shoulders at that moment. I think pointing out the fan to security would have been the best way to go, and would have caused much less trouble.

Again, I just want to say that Artest may have been justified, but he could have done a lot more to help the situation. Rushing into the stands probably wasn't the best option./images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Richard Tanner]

On this I agree somewhat. Yes the riot wouldn't have happend if Artest had just calmed down but to what extent can we expect him to remain calm. Ben Wallace hits him and he restrains himself. I';m sure the fans were yelling at him and agrovating him and he restrains himself. When the beer hit, that has to be the last straw.
I don't want to say that he was finding the best solution, but a man can only take so much.
As a side note I encourage anyone to find my math problem torwards the bottom of this thread to help protect themselves in the future.

Cody

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
this is all I am going to say,

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon dude, are you tryin to win the race to 10k or not!?!?!

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly the players' union wouldn't let a permanent ban occur. I imagine they'll be suspened for the rest of the year. (Artest and Jackson)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was clearly premeditated. Now Artest will have the time off to promote his rap album. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Lazymeatball]

I'm having a hard time understanding this self defense argument for Artest going after the fan who supposedly threw the cup at him. After Artest gets hit, then he has been assualted and does the right to defend himself, but the fan is no where near him. When he starts going after the fan, he is now on offense.

If Artest was seriously concerned about his safety, say in fear of having more cups thrown at him, he would take cover within the crowd of security and officials and all the huge guys in nice suits on the court. Clearly running into a crowd of hostile fans was not his best defensive move, thus I see him as the offender, although some consideration should be given for the fact that he had been previously assaulted. I think the time and distance between the two incidents is too great for it to be self defense.

If a guy punches you, and then runs at least 20 feet away from you and is no longer threatening you, do you have the right to chase after him and get revenge as self defense? This is a sincere question, not some sarcastic rhetorical bs.

[dr. klopek]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm just going by what the league, cops, and lawyers will be looking at. Self-defense.

The problem will be that Artest will claim that he THOUGHT that was the fan that threw the crap at him. What the league and lawyers are likely to tell him, is that just saying "I made a mistake" will not be good enough. Mistakes like that don't hold up in court very often.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no lawyer, but it doesn't seem to me that Ron Artest"s actions can rationally be considered self defense. I would hope that in this case it wouldn't matter who threw what. Artest went shockingly out of his way to inflict physical harm on someone who had done something physically harmless, in a situation he could easily remove himself from by simply walking away with only the threat of more harmless harassment. I think that there is little difference between doing what he did to the fan that threw the cup and doing it to someone who didn't.

[ozyman]

Best quote from this whole thing:

Quentin Richardson of the Phoenix Suns watched the brawl on television.

"I have never seen a fight like that in a game since I was in high school"

[gonores]

Am I the only one who is shocked by the absence of Rasheed Wallace in this matter? I mean, I know he's calmed down since he went to Detroit, but c'mon...the amount of restraint he showed throughout the ordeal is almost disturbing.

[West]

But the thing is, if Artest attacked the wrong fan...then this falls apart. I thought Jackson got involved after Artest was being prevented from punching the downed fan, and another fan then through some drink on him...right in front of Jackson, who then took a swing at that fan. Much later in the whole incident, I thought they showed Jackson punching some other fan too, but I'll have to watch SportCenter again.

I guess not many will agree, but from what I've seen so far, I think Jermaine O'Neal's sucker punch of the guy Ron Artest had just punched on the court was the least defensible (I'm not talking legally). I do realize he shouldn't have been on the court, but given that there are court side seats, it's not an unreasonable possibility that this fan wasn't a drunk coming on the court for whatever reason....and for all we know, it may turn out that he was trying to go back to his seat, courtside. He may have said something to Artest, but from the angle I saw, it appeared to me that Artest surprised him, and it didn't appear to me that his intention was to confront Artest. Of course I don't know what the fan may have said. Regardless of Artest's rationale, I'm having trouble seeing the logic for Jermaine O'Neal doing what he did. Artest has the excuse of the fan appearing to approach him, O'Neal is taking a vicious cheap shot on a guy who was in the process of getting up from being decked by Artest.

[MarkL444]

damn you happy hour, i missed everything

[andyfox]

Artest was not in physical danger in any way. A plastic cup hit him. A cup hitting a player cannot be "potentially threatening." It's already been done, there's no potential at all. If you feel more cups will come at you, go to the center of the court, as far away from the idiots as possible.

Wallace did not "throw a punch" to Artest's neck. He did shove/choke him in the neck. Not much difference. And Wallace was ready to fight. He was definitely the precipitator of the incident involving the players, a complete over-reaction to Artest's silly foul.

But that was over and the ugliness that resulted thereafter was directly because Artest and Jackson went into the stands.

I like your punishment for the Pistons. I would also not allow them to sell alcohol at games for the rest of the season.

We are in 100% agreement that the fans who threw things ought to be in jail.

[IndieMatty]

Wallace - 15 Games
R. Wallace - 5 Games
Stephen Jackson - Season
Ron Artest - Season
Jermaine O'Neal - 25 games

Actually technically every single one of the players should get one for stepping off the court.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/index.html


Go Knicks!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

So basically what you're saying is that you should be allowed to commit violence on a person who pours cold liquid on you?

Artest is a thug and should go to jail.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who is shocked by the absence of Rasheed Wallace in this matter? I mean, I know he's calmed down since he went to Detroit, but c'mon...the amount of restraint he showed throughout the ordeal is almost disturbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not suprise me at all.

Some people are crazy when they are around normal people. The lack of action/drama/excitement drives them nuts. Put them in a dangerous/intense situation and they turn into the most disciplined rationally thinking person in the room. They are now in their element, they are at home.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/juztini/Copyof1094825076757.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Freaky, assuming this is a human w/ makeup, how did you make the eyes that black?

[BusterStacks]

I'm glad to see a stupid-ass fan get what they had coming, but unfortunately I think the consquences are going to outweigh the crime. In an isolated incident however, I would like to see Artest beat the [censored] out of that guy.

[Slacker13]

I completely agree, the fans started this and Artest will most likely get the [censored] end of the stick. If that fat kid who got stuck in the chin by Artest shows up on TV with a lawyer and a lawsuit I am going to be even more sick.
If anyone should be sued it's the Pistons organization for not getting security down to the floor in the first place.

[andyfox]

"He was on top of me, pummeling me," fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. "He asked me, 'Did you do it? I said, 'No, man. No!"'

I would like to see the fans that threw things arrested and serve jail time. I would like to see Artest and Jackson banned from the NBA.

[andyfox]

"the fans started this"

No they didn't. One fan threw a cup at Ron Artest. Artest started the riot by going into the stands, pummeling, apparently, the wrong person. Artest had the option of walking away, just like he did against Ben Wallace.

Fights like the one between the Piston and Pacer players are not uncommon. It would have ended right there had not Artest gone into the stands.

Artest is a time bomb that finally exploded.

[andyfox]

I agree with you. I don't see the self-defense argument at all. Self-defense from what? A cup of water? Get up and ask people to point out the culprit. Then go to center court, far away rom the crowd. He had the self-restraint to back off when Wallace was threatening him.

[andyfox]

The announcer said something about Rasheed going into the stands too, but he was wrong. He got up on top of the bench (or a table) to see what was going on in the stands.

[andyfox]

I can't see the self-defense argument holding up whether he had the correct guy or not. What was Artest defending himself against? Did the guy have another cup of water at the ready?

[HDPM]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its entirely reasonable to expect that if you throw a beer on somebody you should be prepared to throw down.

[/ QUOTE ]


Without reading all the replies, maybe someone has mentioned this, but when you attack thousands of people in Detroit and are unarmed, shouldn't you expect to at least have your arms, legs, ribs, and jaw broken? Shouldn't you expect to get stomped and have your teeth kicked in on the concrete arena stairs? Artest is a total moron and is lucky he isn't crippled. Not that it would have been legal to stomp him down, put the boots to him, and cripple him. But he is a flaming moron. I can't imagine attacking an arena full of people. That shows he is a completely unbalanced and dangerous person.

That said, Andy is right. This is an easy lifetime ban. If the NBA wimps out and only gives him a year off, there might be major problems for the league in the future. This could have turned into a riot and people could have been killed. Whoever threw a beer on Artest is a POS, but his reaction endangered plenty of innocent people.

[PhatTBoll]

Speaking in a strictly legal sense, you are correct. The standard for self-defense is whether you expect serious, imminent bodily harm. There's no way Artest can claim that was the case.

To West--I think you are a little confused, or maybe I am. The fan that Artest punched (on the court) wasn't the same guy who eventually caught the running cold-cock from Jermaine O'Neal. They were dressed similarly, but not the same guy. The guy Jermaine punched had been messing with one of the Pacers' assistants (black guy in the tan suit), but the assistant had been pulled away right before Jermaine came in. The only part of the replay they show over and over again is the part where Jermaine comes flying in from the side of the screen. This makes Jermaine's actions look a little worse than they really were, I think.

Am I the only one who was wondering who that geeky looking tall guy was before I realized it was Scot Pollard?

[RcrdBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
"the fans started this"

No they didn't. One fan threw a cup at Ron Artest. Artest started the riot by going into the stands, pummeling, apparently, the wrong person. Artest had the option of walking away, just like he did against Ben Wallace.


[/ QUOTE ]

You keep talking about this incident like the events happened independently.

Artest show restraint after getting jammed in the throat. He continues to stay away as Wallace continues to come after him. Then someone throws a drink on him while he isn't doing a thing, but trying to calm down.

Obviously he shouldn't go into the stands. Nothing good is going to happen for Artest by going into the stands, but there is a breaking point for all of us.

[HDPM]

NL Soldier, there is a colossal difference between a scrape between two of the participants in a physical game and going into the stands. That makes ALL the difference. A fine for Wallace might be fine. But anything less than 5 years off for Artest is wimpy IMO. Let him play in EWurope and see how is act plays in bosnia or wherever.

[RcrdBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, the fans were idiots. Anyone who throws drink at a player should be prosecuted. It shouldn't be tolerated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Kind of like what happened to the guys that attacked Tom Gamboa (http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20030806&content_id=46304 9&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).

Nothing will happen. That's why fans continue to do this.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its entirely reasonable to expect that if you throw a beer on somebody you should be prepared to throw down.

[/ QUOTE ]


Without reading all the replies, maybe someone has mentioned this, but when you attack thousands of people in Detroit and are unarmed, shouldn't you expect to at least have your arms, legs, ribs, and jaw broken? Shouldn't you expect to get stomped and have your teeth kicked in on the concrete arena stairs? Artest is a total moron and is lucky he isn't crippled. Not that it would have been legal to stomp him down, put the boots to him, and cripple him. But he is a flaming moron. I can't imagine attacking an arena full of people. That shows he is a completely unbalanced and dangerous person.

That said, Andy is right. This is an easy lifetime ban. If the NBA wimps out and only gives him a year off, there might be major problems for the league in the future. This could have turned into a riot and people could have been killed. Whoever threw a beer on Artest is a POS, but his reaction endangered plenty of innocent people.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty outrageous how many people in this thread don't believe the victim of a violent crime has the right to defend themself. If you throw a glass of beer in someone's face, or punch someone in the face, THIS IS ASSAULT, AND YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF. The county police chief was interviewed by Jim Gray hours after this happened, while they were reviewing the game tapes, and he explicitly stated that throwing a beer in someone's face is assault, and the victim may defend themself.

The victim is this incident is Ron Artest. The thing is, he finally got what the NBA has been telling him the last couple of years. When Ben Wallace gave him that vicious chop to his throat, he walked away and did not retaliate, even as Big Ben was continuing to try and provoke Artest as he laid down on the table.

A fan then committed assault, by throwing a glass of beer in Artest's throat/face/eyes, as Artest lay in a prone and defenseless position. It's at this point that the Piston's security needed to step in and take care of the situation. The problem is, security was nowhere to be found, and thus Artest and the Pacers' players had to take matters into their own hands, defending themselves.

The Pistons' fans involved are a bunch of cowardly punks. To Artest's credit, he didn't actually punch the nerdy white guy, but just physically restrained him. The fan who assaulted Artest in the first place was the guy who was holding Artest when he was going after the nerdy white guy. This fan then proceeded to punch Artest from behind while holding him, and from there all hell broke loose.
As for any of the fans on the court who got punched, they all got what they deserved, as they were tresspassing and were direct threats to the players' security.

The two players who were most out of line in this riot, are Ben Wallace and Stephen Jackson. The foul Artest committed on Wallace, was a hard, fundamentally correct foul. With less than a minute left in the game, I can understand why Wallace was irritated, but he went way over the line by attacking Artest. If Shaquille O'neal were to respond in similar fashion every time he was fouled hard, there would be a brawl every game. Basketball is a man's game--if you're not a man then get the hell off the court. As for Stephen Jackson, he went overboard by throwing haymakers at every fan in the general vicinity of Artest, even though he was just trying to help defend his teammate.

The bottom line is, the Pistons organization and the NBA failed miserably by not providing adequate security for the players. If security doesn't do its job, then the players have to defend themselves, because there is no other viable option. The players union is going to back all of these guys 100%.

As for the nerdy white guy filing a lawsuit against Artest, I hope he does, so Artest can then turn around and sue the Detroit Pistons and NBA for 2-3 times the money, for failing to provide adequate security. If I'm Artest, the victim, and the NBA attempts to suspend me for more than 5 games, I'm filing a $20 million lawsuit, and settling for half.

[West]

[ QUOTE ]
A fan then committed assault, by throwing a glass of beer in Artest's throat/face/eyes, as Artest lay in a prone and defenseless position. It's at this point that the Piston's security needed to step in and take care of the situation. The problem is, security was nowhere to be found, and thus Artest and the Pacers' players had to take matters into their own hands, defending themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can blame security initially, because Artest reacted immediately. They didn't have a chance to step in and take care of the situation before Artest was already attacking, apparently, the wrong fan. Also, it appeared to me to be a closed or empty container that hit Artest, not open glass/cup full of beer. I'm not saying players should not have the right to defend themselves once fans cross that line, but at that point, one fan had thrown one thing - I don't think Ron Artest or anyone else was in any danger. They could have given security a chance to handle the situation. I think it's important that any action that can be taken against fans who throw things at players be taken, otherwise it's going to keep happening, and players are going to eventually seek retribution on these types of fans themselves. But in this case, to me, the bottom line is, Ron Artest didn't even know which fan threw the container at him.

[ QUOTE ]
The Pistons' fans involved are a bunch of cowardly punks. To Artest's credit, he didn't actually punch the nerdy white guy, but just physically restrained him.

[/ QUOTE ]

On first look, that's what I thought also, but on second look, it appears to me as if Artest is pulling back to throw a punch when other fans grab him (including the one who I hear is the guy who actually threw the container at him). You just can't excuse beating some guy in the crowd because you think he *might* have been the guy who hit you with something. You better have the right guy.

[Boris]

Artest never actually threw a punch at the nerdy white guy.

Remember that nobody was seriously hurt in this entire mess. Why would want to take away a person's lively hood for an incident where there was no serious damage inflicted?

[nothumb]

The police chief is getting on TV and saying that because this is the NBA. If somebody pours beer on me in the bar tonight and I go twenty feet across the room to pound his ass out, I will go to jail for assault too. That's the law. It may change because this is the NBA, but I have seen very similar situations to this involving the police at bars, clubs, etc, and everybody went to jail.

NT

[HDPM]

What's funny is that I am often accused of being a lunatic pro-self defense person. I really doubt you could find somebody more in favor of self defense than I. What Artest did was simply not self defense. He risked people's lives over getting a beer thrown at him. Whoever threw the beer is a criminal. No question. But you can't go wading into a crowd and start attacking people who may or may not have committed a misdemeanor battery. Particularly in this context.


Artest did not deserve to have beer thrown on him, although laying on the table was a moronic thing to do; it would obviously incite the fans and hecklers. Once he got the beer thrown on him, he was a victim, but didn't have the right to go hunt down the beer thrower. He obviously is somebody that no responsible business would hire when he will attack customers in a situation where many innocent people could get hurt. So if the NBA is a responsible business they will ban him.

[West]

What about the guy who got suckered punched by O'Neal on the court after Artest had already dropped him? I think USA Today says he left on a stretcher. A friend tells me that even after O'N eal sucker punched that guy, someone in a suit attacked him again (I think it may have been Anthony Johnson).

[Boris]

HDPM you sound like you are preparing to get in the litigation fest.

[ QUOTE ]
I really doubt you could find somebody more in favor of self defense than I.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we find somebody that is more in favor of grammer than you?

[ QUOTE ]
He risked people's lives over getting a beer thrown at him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Puleeeze. Artest didn't try and kill anybody.

[ QUOTE ]
So if the NBA is a responsible business they will ban him.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. This is lawyer speak for "I'm gonna sue your ass." We all know that irresponsible businesses deserve to get sued, don't they HDPM?

[Clarkmeister]

NEW YORK, Nov. 20 -- NBA Commissioner David Stern issued the following statement today:
“The events at last night’s game were shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA. This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games. Our investigation is ongoing and I expect it to be completed by tomorrow evening.

The NBA has taken the following actions, effective immediately:

1. Indiana players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neal are suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.

2. Detroit player Ben Wallace is suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.

3. Review of rules and procedures relating to altercations and security have been undertaken so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.”

[Sponger15SB]

NBA indefinitely suspends Artest, O'Neal, Jackson, Wallace

By CHRIS SHERIDAN, AP Basketball Writer
November 20, 2004
NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history.

The suspensions were indefinite, and the league was still investigating Friday night's melee involving fans, which commissioner David Stern called ``shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA.''

The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures ``so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.''

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson -- all of whom threw punches at fans during the fight at the end of Friday night's nationally televised Pacers-Pistons game -- were to begin serving their suspensions Saturday night, when the Pacers played a home game against Orlando.

Wallace's suspension will begin with the Pistons' next home game, Sunday night against the Charlotte Bobcats. Pistons spokesman Tom Wilson said Saturday the team plans to use ``playoff-level security'' starting with that game, doubling the number of armed police and increasing arena security by about 25 percent, though he couldn't say how many police and security that would be.

``Our investigation is ongoing, and I expect it to be completed by tomorrow evening,'' Stern said in his statement.

The brawl was shocking, with Artest and Jackson bolting into the stands near center court and throwing punches at fans after debris was thrown at the players. Later, fans who came onto the court were punched in the face by Artest and O'Neal.

Wallace began the fracas by delivering a hard two-handed shove to Artest after Wallace was fouled on a drive to the basket with 45.9 seconds remaining. After the melee broke out, the referees called off the remainder of the game.

``This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands, whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games,'' Stern said.

[Sponger15SB]

ok why suspend wallace indefinintly???

give him 2 games and forget about it.

[HDPM]

Nah, I'm not going to get involved in any litigation over this stuff. Not enough damages. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

And as to:

"Can we find somebody that is more in favor of grammer than you?"


The answer is yes. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A fan then committed assault, by throwing a glass of beer in Artest's throat/face/eyes, as Artest lay in a prone and defenseless position. It's at this point that the Piston's security needed to step in and take care of the situation. The problem is, security was nowhere to be found, and thus Artest and the Pacers' players had to take matters into their own hands, defending themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can blame security initially, because Artest reacted immediately. They didn't have a chance to step in and take care of the situation before Artest was already attacking, apparently, the wrong fan. Also, it appeared to me to be a closed or empty container that hit Artest, not open glass/cup full of beer. I'm not saying players should not have the right to defend themselves once fans cross that line, but at that point, one fan had thrown one thing - I don't think Ron Artest or anyone else was in any danger. They could have given security a chance to handle the situation. I think it's important that any action that can be taken against fans who throw things at players be taken, otherwise it's going to keep happening, and players are going to eventually seek retribution on these types of fans themselves. But in this case, to me, the bottom line is, Ron Artest didn't even know which fan threw the container at him.

[ QUOTE ]
The Pistons' fans involved are a bunch of cowardly punks. To Artest's credit, he didn't actually punch the nerdy white guy, but just physically restrained him.

[/ QUOTE ]

On first look, that's what I thought also, but on second look, it appears to me as if Artest is pulling back to throw a punch when other fans grab him (including the one who I hear is the guy who actually threw the container at him). You just can't excuse beating some guy in the crowd because you think he *might* have been the guy who hit you with something. You better have the right guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm blaming security for failing to react both initially, and when the Pacers went into the stands. It's every company's responsibility to protect its employees, and the NBA and Pistons failed miserably last night on both counts. Once the initial melee on the court broke out, security personal should have positioned themseleves between the players on the court, and the fans in the seats. There was more than enough time for them to do this.

FWIW, Artest did bring his arm back like he was going to punch the white nerdy guy, but he didn't swing at him. Needless to say, the guy holding him back (the punk who initially assaulted Artest) couldn't of stopped Artest from punching him if he tried. Artest chose not to hit the guy, and he was correct for not doing so.

For the record, police all across the country arrest the "wrong guy" on a daily basis. This is not a crime nor should it be. Now Artest is not a poiceman, but he was assaulted in a mob type of situation. IMO, I don't think simply grabbing the guy who you think assaulted you is a major deal, as long as you don't start beating him down. After all, Artest did ask the guy if he was the one who assaulted him. I'll point out again, if security was doing its job, this would of been avoided.

[West]

Damn, you're right. I looked at a video they have in ESPN motion (espn.com) and the guys look very very similar but they're not the same guys. I wish we could see all the video instead of just snippets.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]

ok why suspend wallace indefinintly???

give him 2 games and forget about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously. It's freaking hard to make up for losing your center in leagues this year.

Big Ben has already missed a bunch of games for me...

scrub

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
ok why suspend wallace indefinintly???

give him 2 games and forget about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it was his actions that started all this. Artest backed off and he kept going. He backs off, Artest doesn't need to lay down on the table, presumably doesn't get the beer thrown at his face, and doesn't go into the stands after the jackass that threw it. Wallace was the instigator, not Artest.

-Edge

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
The police chief is getting on TV and saying that because this is the NBA. If somebody pours beer on me in the bar tonight and I go twenty feet across the room to pound his ass out, I will go to jail for assault too. That's the law. It may change because this is the NBA, but I have seen very similar situations to this involving the police at bars, clubs, etc, and everybody went to jail.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, according to the law, if someone were to commit assault upon you by throwing a beer at your head from 20 feet away, you are allowed to defend yourself. In the club/bar scenario you presented, you are correct in saying that you would be arrested too, because the police don't give a damn about the average citizen getting assaulted in this type of situation. They're going to arrest you first, and if you're lucky, ask questions later. Any good attorney, however, would have these assault charges dropped before court. You would obviously need a very good attorney, however, as an average attorney could not be trusted to accomplish this with any certainty.

[West]

Lol...I have Stephen Jackson. If Austin Croshere is available in your league you should grab him.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
He obviously is somebody that no responsible business would hire when he will attack customers in a situation where many innocent people could get hurt. So if the NBA is a responsible business they will ban him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So HDPM...if someone comes in my office and attacks me, its MY fault when I defend myself? To make out the beer-thrower as an innocent "customer" (although you did say earlier he's a criminal), is foolish. The beer-thrower and the "fans" who stepped on the court got what was coming to them. I say this not as a Pacers fan, but as a basketball fan in general who was sickened by EVERYTHING that happened last night.

-Edge

[scrub]

He's not--someone snapped him up about a week ago.

I picked up Mark Jackson b/c he qualifies as a forward too, so I'll be able to use him even when Wallace comes back (I'm betting the union doesn't let Ben get more than 5).

The only other decent performing backup still out there didn't qualify as a forward and didn't shoot freethrows well--FG% and FT% are a big deal for me b/c they're the two categories my team underperforms in.

scrub

[tolbiny]

If you were my employee and you had a plastic cup of water thrown at you in a high profile meeting, and you tackled the guy you would be
1. reprimanded for overreatcing.
2. asked to seek anger management counciling to ensure such an overreaction doesnt happen again.

If you behavior in previous events had shown your tendancy to anger and you already had several reprimands in your file because of it you would be fired.

(ps the guy who threw the water at you would be fired on the spot as well if he was my employee and there would be serious discussions if he was another company's employee)

[sublime]

i saw it live on TV. i have indy under 55 wins for the season. i was happy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
What's funny is that I am often accused of being a lunatic pro-self defense person. I really doubt you could find somebody more in favor of self defense than I. What Artest did was simply not self defense. He risked people's lives over getting a beer thrown at him. Whoever threw the beer is a criminal. No question. But you can't go wading into a crowd and start attacking people who may or may not have committed a misdemeanor battery. Particularly in this context.


Artest did not deserve to have beer thrown on him, although laying on the table was a moronic thing to do; it would obviously incite the fans and hecklers. Once he got the beer thrown on him, he was a victim, but didn't have the right to go hunt down the beer thrower. He obviously is somebody that no responsible business would hire when he will attack customers in a situation where many innocent people could get hurt. So if the NBA is a responsible business they will ban him.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, if the NBA was a responsible business, they would have enough properly trained security guards and police officers to protect the players on the court. Ron Artest is the victim here, period. He has every right to defend himself, if the company he works for (the NBA) isn't responsible enough to defend him and the other players.

How exactly did Artest "risk peoples lives?" He was the one who was assaulted (twice I might add, by Wallace first although that doesn't count, and then the cowardly, punk-ass Piston fan). You mean to tell me if I see you in a crowded mall, and throw and hit you in the head with a bottle of liquid at point blank range, you don't have a right to defend yourself? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were my employee and you had a plastic cup of water thrown at you in a high profile meeting, and you tackled the guy you would be
1. reprimanded for overreatcing.
2. asked to seek anger management counciling to ensure such an overreaction doesnt happen again.

If you behavior in previous events had shown your tendancy to anger and you already had several reprimands in your file because of it you would be fired.

(ps the guy who threw the water at you would be fired on the spot as well if he was my employee and there would be serious discussions if he was another company's employee)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were this employee and you both accused me of overreacting, and demanded I seek counselling, I would refuse, and let you fire me on unlawful grounds. After this, I would sue you and your company successfully for so much money that I would be the new owner of your company. It's never a good idea to further victimize the victim of any violent assault.

[Sponger15SB]

There's no excuse

by Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
November 19, 2004




When you take a long, emotionless look at it – which is what first David Stern and later a Michigan court surely will do – the fault for the wildness that erupted at the end of the Indiana Pacers' victory at the Detroit Pistons on Friday will land at the feet of one guy, Ron Artest.

The Indiana forward made a serious and intolerable (no matter how understandable) mistake when his reaction to getting hit with a cup of beer was to hunt down the perpetrator.

Enraged, he climbed over press row, jumped the hockey boards and proceeded to attack a spectator in the stands. A near-riot broke out afterward.

It is an act that no athlete should ever, ever engage in, no matter how much a fan may deserve it.

To make matters worse in this case, no camera angle or eyewitness account I am aware of suggests that the fan Artest got a hold of – the guy in the black shirt – threw the beer.

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That guy seems way too far away to even make the throw. ESPN's Jim Gray reported it was the fan with the white hat, which seems plausible since he later punched Artest from behind. And if you watch closely, the moment Artest grabs the guy in the black shirt, it is clear the fan is holding his drink in his left hand.

This looks like an innocent bystander.

Which is why David Stern has two choices. He either turns a deaf ear to all of the hysterical apologists out there and slaps Artest with a historic suspension, or says that when players are confronted by one out-of-control fan they have the right to charge into the stands and beat the hell out of the first guy they see.

Know this: When the video is played in the calm of a courtroom, Artest had better hope the guy in the black shirt was double fisting or he is cooked.

Teammate Stephen Jackson won't fare much better. After the black shirt's friend understandably threw a drink at Artest in an effort to stop the attack, the eager-to-fight Jackson raced over to throw a sucker punch that his career and bank account are likely to regret.

On a side note, Jermaine O'Neal can thank his lucky stars that his front leg slipped on the wet floor when he later threw that running haymaker at the clueless fat guy in the Pistons shirt who had gotten into it with Artest. Watch that punch again on the video. If O'Neal's left leg plants and he gets full force behind the punch, that fan gets hit harder than Rudy T.

The entire episode made for impossible-to-ignore video and will keep the chattering class going just as the Terrell Owens-"Desperate Housewives" debate was playing out.

But in the end this has to go back to Artest's reaction. Not to excuse the original beer-throwing hooligan (here is hoping he's arrested), but nutcase fans are nothing new. Artest isn't the first athlete to get hit by a beer.

None of the real craziness happens if Artest doesn't blow his stack. Everything dies down if Artest doesn't break the cardinal rule of athlete/fan interaction – no touching. This is nothing more than a satisfying victory for the Pacers if Artest acts like a professional.

NBA player is one of many jobs in which restraint is a prerequisite. Police officers deal with it on a nightly basis. Ditto for bartenders, bouncers, soldiers and so on.

The public occasionally may be drunken, pathetic idiots who lash out full of the courage that comes from the crowd. Getting hit with a beer may not be fun. But sadly that is one of the tradeoffs of the job.

When a fan crosses the line, you leave it up to security, you press charges, you turn the other cheek. No matter how tough that is.

You never, ever go into the stands to attack a fan. Ever.

Because you might punch an innocent person, incite a riot, break the law, get sued and give your sport as black of an eye as it's seen.

If David Stern doesn't want to teach Ron Artest that lesson, the legal system almost assuredly will.

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send him a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[censored] Dan Wetzel.

The fans should be ashamed of themselves in Detroit, completely absurd behavior. Those that got punched by the players deserved what they got, those innocent fans that got hit by punches, beers, chairs, whatever, are the real victimes here, as weel as the players. Truely sad day.

Anyone hear anything about potential suspensions?

[West]

No doubt security could be a lot better - it probably isn't because most of the time it doesn't have to be. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. But even if it's a lot better, I think it's always going to be possible for someone to lob a plastic bottle like that. And when an athlete like Ron Artest moves that quickly to get into the crowd, that's also asking a lot for security to prevent it. However good security is, I'm sure security would say that Ron Artest would make their job a lot easier if he stays on the court in that situation. But I think it is up to the team to have good enough security so that players will have confidence that these type of fans will be dealt with appropriately.

Obviously it's open to interpretation, but watching the video again, I do think that Artest was pulling back to hit the guy, and yes, he did get stopped by the fans that grabbed him. That's how it looks to me. Now had he wanted to, he may very well have been able to break free and still punch the guy, so maybe he came to his senses in that regard.

I don't think he just grabbed the guy - looked more like a palm shove to the face to me.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no excuse

by Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
November 19, 2004




When you take a long, emotionless look at it – which is what first David Stern and later a Michigan court surely will do – the fault for the wildness that erupted at the end of the Indiana Pacers' victory at the Detroit Pistons on Friday will land at the feet of one guy, Ron Artest.

The Indiana forward made a serious and intolerable (no matter how understandable) mistake when his reaction to getting hit with a cup of beer was to hunt down the perpetrator.

Enraged, he climbed over press row, jumped the hockey boards and proceeded to attack a spectator in the stands. A near-riot broke out afterward.

It is an act that no athlete should ever, ever engage in, no matter how much a fan may deserve it.

To make matters worse in this case, no camera angle or eyewitness account I am aware of suggests that the fan Artest got a hold of – the guy in the black shirt – threw the beer.

ADVERTISEMENT


That guy seems way too far away to even make the throw. ESPN's Jim Gray reported it was the fan with the white hat, which seems plausible since he later punched Artest from behind. And if you watch closely, the moment Artest grabs the guy in the black shirt, it is clear the fan is holding his drink in his left hand.

This looks like an innocent bystander.

Which is why David Stern has two choices. He either turns a deaf ear to all of the hysterical apologists out there and slaps Artest with a historic suspension, or says that when players are confronted by one out-of-control fan they have the right to charge into the stands and beat the hell out of the first guy they see.

Know this: When the video is played in the calm of a courtroom, Artest had better hope the guy in the black shirt was double fisting or he is cooked.

Teammate Stephen Jackson won't fare much better. After the black shirt's friend understandably threw a drink at Artest in an effort to stop the attack, the eager-to-fight Jackson raced over to throw a sucker punch that his career and bank account are likely to regret.

On a side note, Jermaine O'Neal can thank his lucky stars that his front leg slipped on the wet floor when he later threw that running haymaker at the clueless fat guy in the Pistons shirt who had gotten into it with Artest. Watch that punch again on the video. If O'Neal's left leg plants and he gets full force behind the punch, that fan gets hit harder than Rudy T.

The entire episode made for impossible-to-ignore video and will keep the chattering class going just as the Terrell Owens-"Desperate Housewives" debate was playing out.

But in the end this has to go back to Artest's reaction. Not to excuse the original beer-throwing hooligan (here is hoping he's arrested), but nutcase fans are nothing new. Artest isn't the first athlete to get hit by a beer.

None of the real craziness happens if Artest doesn't blow his stack. Everything dies down if Artest doesn't break the cardinal rule of athlete/fan interaction – no touching. This is nothing more than a satisfying victory for the Pacers if Artest acts like a professional.

NBA player is one of many jobs in which restraint is a prerequisite. Police officers deal with it on a nightly basis. Ditto for bartenders, bouncers, soldiers and so on.

The public occasionally may be drunken, pathetic idiots who lash out full of the courage that comes from the crowd. Getting hit with a beer may not be fun. But sadly that is one of the tradeoffs of the job.

When a fan crosses the line, you leave it up to security, you press charges, you turn the other cheek. No matter how tough that is.

You never, ever go into the stands to attack a fan. Ever.

Because you might punch an innocent person, incite a riot, break the law, get sued and give your sport as black of an eye as it's seen.

If David Stern doesn't want to teach Ron Artest that lesson, the legal system almost assuredly will.

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send him a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the NBA/Pistons/Palace actually had a competent security force properly doing their jobs, then I would agree with the writer's premise. Problem is, there was no security to be found. I have no doubt that the nerdy white guy will sue Artest and win. The proper thing for Artest to do at this point is to put a full court legal press on the NBA, Pistons, and Palace, which left him, the victim, with no other option other than to defend himself. I encourage Artest to file a civil lawsuit for 2-3 times the amount the nerdy white guy sues him for. It's the NBA's responsiblity to protect the players and the fans. In this case, they obviously failed miserably on both counts, and should be punished appropriately for their negligence sheer incompetence.

This writer is completely clueless when he refers to police, bartenders, etc. having to face a similar scenario every night. Police officers routinely arrest innocent people, only to release them later. Over the years, I have personally witnessed dozens of innocent patrons in bars and clubs getting manhandled and kicked out by bouncers and security, when they have done nothing wrong (they were misidentified, just like the nerdy white guy). About the only thing the writer is correct about in this article is that the NBA is going to try and lay all the blame on Artest, the victim, to try and save their own sorry ass's.

[West]

[ QUOTE ]
After the black shirt's friend understandably threw a drink at Artest in an effort to stop the attack, the eager-to-fight Jackson raced over to throw a sucker punch that his career and bank account are likely to regret.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to intepret the guy throwing beer in Artest's face (who Stephen Jackson subsequently punched) as "an [understandable] effort to stop the attack"..

[tolbiny]

Uhh, reading comprehension-
What you wrote.
"and demanded I seek counselling"

What i wrote was
"asked to seek anger management counciling"

And that employee would be fired only if they had a history of at work violence which could no longer be tolerated. I understand that in a physical sport like basketball there are going to be more alterations than at a normal job, but Artest's history clearly supports serious action from the league.

"It's never a good idea to further victimize the victim of any violent assault"

Artest is no longer a victim in this case. Once he runs into the stands he becomes an aggressor- the legal definitions of self defence are worded so that a person has the right to do whatever is nessecary to remove himself from danger. In no way can rushing at a group of people of whom one might be a former assailant be construed as removing yourself from danger.

[dr. klopek]

Oh my god. Are you all insane? the only action taken by anyone that can be logically considered self-defense is the punch that Artest threw at the guy who came down onto the court and up to him. He was hit in the chest by a plastic cup for christ's sake.

Security!??? How on Earth can anyone blame security? A bit slow to react, sure, but are people expected to go [censored] insane just because there's no security officers around? I doubt Ron Artest will defend himself by saying "there was no security, I had no choice." This very notion is absurd, that somehow there is no accountability on the part of the participants on the basis that no one was there to physically restrain them.

If anyone's life was in danger, it was that of Ron Artest. If somehow, a court of law decides that a single unarmed man is a danger to the lives of an entire crowd of NBA fans, they're giving him a little too much credit.

All of the fans that involved themselves got what they asked for. In real life, even if you don't harm someone, if they want to hit you, expect to get hit. If you do something to humiliate and anger someone, and they become angry and you get exactly what you asked for, boo [censored] hoo. It is [censored] stupid to be shocked at what happened as a result of the cup-throwing, and to absolve anyone of their personal responsibility is insane.

BTW, the O'Neal slide-in punch: TOTALLY AWESOME! He should get MVP for that.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, reading comprehension-
What you wrote.
"and demanded I seek counselling"

What i wrote was
"asked to seek anger management counciling"

And that employee would be fired only if they had a history of at work violence which could no longer be tolerated. I understand that in a physical sport like basketball there are going to be more alterations than at a normal job, but Artest's history clearly supports serious action from the league.

"It's never a good idea to further victimize the victim of any violent assault"

Artest is no longer a victim in this case. Once he runs into the stands he becomes an aggressor- the legal definitions of self defence are worded so that a person has the right to do whatever is nessecary to remove himself from danger. In no way can rushing at a group of people of whom one might be a former assailant be construed as removing yourself from danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for mispelling counciling, as I'm obviously not using my spell checker at the moment. For the record, I was referring only to the anger management counciling you mentioned in your thread, and I assumed you would understand this. At least we are on the same page now.

You shouldn't be employing anyone with a history of workplace violence at your company. I would suggest your company adopts a zero tolerance policy for workplace violence, or you are opening yourself up to litigation if another incident occurs. Obviously, there should be an exception for certain professions such as sports, police, the military, etc.

Your assessment that Artest is no longer a victim once he enters the stands is deeply flawed. Once Artest is assaulted, he basically has two choices. One is to run to the locker room and risk being assaulted by the same individual, or possibly others, as by running you're potentially emboldening other fans to attack you as you'll be seen as weak. The other option is to go after and physically detain the assailant, and thus insure he cannot continue his assault upon you. Needless to say, since the punk Pistons fan assaulted Artest at point blank range, it's completely Artest's perogative to defend himself in such a matter as he did, both legally and morally. Of cource since he grabbed the wrong guy initially, he will be sued successfully by him. The nerdy white guy could press criminal charges, but I seriously doubt they would stick, since Artest was in such a hostile environment and his employer was greatly negligent in providing appropriate security to protect him. Even if Artest had punched the nerdy white guy, which he didn't, Artest would still be a victim. The only difference would be that the nerdy white guy would now be a victim as well.

[mmcd]

My version:

By CHRIS SHERIDAN, AP Basketball Writer
November 20, 2004
NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA commended Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit on Saturday for taking part in one of the funniest brawls in U.S. sports history.

The boost in the NBA's ratings is definite, and fans are still enthralled by Friday night's melee involving players and fans, which commissioner David Stern called ``one of the most hilarious sports incidents ever-- a spark of life in what has become a stale and boring league.''

The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures ``so that fans can continue to throw [censored] at our players, and our players can continue to engage in fisticuffs with fans.''

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson -- all of whom threw punches at fans during the fight at the end of Friday night's nationally televised Pacers-Pistons game -- have all been offered numerous endorsement deals since the incident. When the Pacers play a home game against Orlando, rolls of nickels and batteries are going to be distributed to the fans.

At the Pistons' next home game, Sunday night against the Charlotte Bobcats. Pistons spokesman Tom Wilson said Saturday the team plans to use ``lower-level security'' starting with that game, reducing the number of armed police and decreasing arena security by about 75 percent, though he couldn't say how many police and security that would be.

``Our investigation is ongoing, and I expect it to be completed by tomorrow evening, and hopefully, with a little effort on our part, this sort of thing will happen more often'' Stern said in his statement.

The brawl was absolutely hilarious, with Artest and Jackson bolting into the stands near center court and throwing punches at fans after debris was thrown at the players. Later, fans who came onto the court were punched in the face by Artest and O'Neal.

Wallace began the fracas by delivering a hard two-handed shove to Artest after Wallace was fouled on a drive to the basket with 45.9 seconds remaining. After the melee broke out, the referees called off the remainder of the game.

``This demonstrates why our players must be quick to enter the stands, whether there was provocation or not...'' Stern said.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Espn.com is reporting that Wallace, O'Neal, Artest, and Jackson are all suspended indefinitely. This [censored] sucks because one of my fantasy teams has both O'Neal and Jackson /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Daliman]

If I was stnding under s bridge, and you dropped a cup of beer on me, if I were to go up and punch you, i would not be "defending myself" I would be getting revenge. There is a limitation on what is considered defending yourself, and imminent threat is a precursor of it. If Artest were to have acted calmly and not showboated, none of this riot would have happened.

F Artest. Anyone who thinks violence is an answer doesn't understand the question.

[tolbiny]

"I apologize for mispelling counciling, as I'm obviously not using my spell checker at the moment. For the record, I was referring only to the anger management counciling you mentioned in your thread, and I assumed you would understand this"

I wasn't attempting to nitpick the spelling, i don't give a darn about that- i was pointing to my use of the word "asking" and your replacing it with demanding. All this is just an initial reaction to the incident and i would most likely be advised by lawyers on how specifically to word this- but any employee in an act such as this would be definately encouraged to seek treatment.


"You shouldn't be employing anyone with a history of workplace violence at your company."

That would be my preference, yes, but sometimes stiuations occur when a persons history may not warrent an immediate dismissal, or your job is one that certain "altercations" are inevitable. But if someone showed the lack of personal discipline that Artest has shown i would be much harseher upon his next violation.


I'm going out for the evening, will address the rest of your post later.
t

[Edge34]

Dali,

Clearly you didn't see the tape yet. Artest was laying PRONE on the announcer's table, with the class of the team, Reggie Miller, standing in front of him. If nothing else, Artest was acting calmer than ANYBODY in the building, Pistons, Pacers, or fans.

If 15,000 angry Pistons fans isn't potentially imminent threat, just ask anybody in the crowd the chair got thrown at or the referee, Tommy Nunez Jr. (I believe), who got hit in the head with a bottle and suffered a decent little gash. You wanna talk about violence being the answer, the blame goes on the idiotic, drunk Pistons fans who threw things at players and those who rushed the court - who got exactly what they deserved.

Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, and Wallace SHOULD be suspended, and are rightfully so. But the bigger issue here is the security not preventing the fans from attacking the players, and vice versa. Add in the IMMENSE amount of alcohol consumption and mob mentality, and while Artest reacted to the assault by a fan, you need to look at what happened before that.

[tolbiny]

"If anyone's life was in danger, it was that of Ron Artest. If somehow, a court of law decides that a single unarmed man is a danger to the lives of an entire crowd of NBA fans, they're giving him a little too much credit."

One person's life was certainly in danger at one point- the "nerdy white guy" who didn't even throw the beer at artest. A 6'6" very athletic, in shape, angry man running at a guy who looks to be 150 lbs could easily cause a lot of damage with one well landed punch, or even just in colliding with him. Artest seriously put that one dude in harms way.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
So HDPM...if someone comes in my office and attacks me, its MY fault when I defend myself?

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone comes to your office, throws a beer in your face and then gets in your face, punch away. I would.

If someone comes to your office, throws a beer in your face, then walks away and you then chase them down and beat them down, yeah, it's your fault.

Artest's actions were, imo, similar to the second scenario.

Would I want to kick that fan's ass if I were Artest? Hell, yeah. Do I think that fan deserved to get his ass kicked? Yes. But you just can't run up into the stands and start a melee in his spot. Others have already explained why.

[Richard Tanner]

Wow it certainly is easy to sit behind a computer screen and judge hostil situations with a cool head. I wish I was as inpartial as those who simply blamed artest for entering the stands and that was it.
Unfortuantly I try to look at a situation case by case and not in one broad stroke. In this case, it's easy to say turn the other cheek, that is it's easy if you're far from the heat of battle. I appalud those of us who say they can restrain themselves, but let's face it, that's a lie.
If I approached you and punched you in the throat, and you did nothing to me, and then as you walked away everyone there was yelling obsenities at you, and you did nothing, and then, just as you sat down to calm yourself, on of my friends threw a beer in your face from point blank, I HIGHLY doubt you could sit motionless and call the cops to deal with it.
Human nature dictated Artests reactions. It's sad to bypass the fault of the fans and place the blame squarly on Artest. The fan insited behavior in Artest that removed from a basketball setting would be prefectly acceptable (after the dust settled). It's a shame to NBA players are held to such a different double standard.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Sticky this post at the top of this please. Excellent.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Again, it is great that you have this incredible self-control in a hostle situation. I wish I had, but I'm a mear mortal so my position is formed from that stance.
Artest was attacked, don't dumb it down (it was only a plastic cup and ice) it doesn't matter what it was, and after this he can (read: should) defend himself to prevent further attacks. Make no mistake that if artest does nothing, it will begin to rain cups, beer, and ice. I've been cut by a piece of ice thrown at me before, it is out of the realm of possibility that Artest didn't want this to happen to him.
I think the statment that the altercation was basically over when Artest got hit and went into the stands. This is true, but what does this tell you about the climate of the fans at the time, it tells you that they were the ones not letting it go, that they were the ones looking for a fight. To blame Artest and give a pass to the fans is just as awful as letting Stephen Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, and Ben Wallace, get away with nothing.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Pour liquid= probably not. Throws liquid and Ice (and yes Ice can do damage) in an emotionally charged situation= Yes you should be allowed to retaliate in an attempt to prevent further violence.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

Yes because it all would've stopped. Sorry but after the shower that the players got after all of this, I'm lead to believe that that game wasn't going to come back even if Artest did nothing, his "just taking it" would lead to more things being thrown.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

NO NO and NO, the person next to him put the guy in harms way. When he threw the beer he made those around him guility by association (I understand that it's awful to attack someone who's innocent, but we have no idea what really went on).
TO answer the inevitable question, were I the nerdy guy in question, I see that beer get tossed and I take off, sure it may look like I'm running away from doing it, but I'd rather look guilty at home then look innocent in intesive care.

Cody

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was stnding under s bridge, and you dropped a cup of beer on me, if I were to go up and punch you, i would not be "defending myself" I would be getting revenge. There is a limitation on what is considered defending yourself, and imminent threat is a precursor of it. If Artest were to have acted calmly and not showboated, none of this riot would have happened.

F Artest. Anyone who thinks violence is an answer doesn't understand the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

The imminent threat may not apply in the bridge scenario you presented, but it certainly does with regards to the event which occurred last night. Had the NBA, Piston's organization, and the Palace not been negligent in providing security, the riot would have been prevented. You can't blame this on Artest, as he is a victim here. The NBA and the Detroit Fans share most of the blame for what happened last night.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When he threw the beer he made those around him guility by association

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ludicrous.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When he threw the beer he made those around him guility by association

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ludicrous.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is ludicrous, and it won't hold up against logic or the law.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When he threw the beer he made those around him guility by association

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ludicrous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worded better to make what I think was the intended point:

When that drunk fool threw his beer at Artest, he put those around him at risk of retailiation, which is precisely what he wanted, and got.

Still, thankfully, Artest never threw a punch at that little dude with glasses, so that should mitigate the final suspension he gets form the league.

And in a way, weren't all the "fans" who participated in whatever way, by egging on the fracas, by throwing beer and garbage, and by going on the court, "guilty by association".

-Edge

[A_C_Slater]

Detroit what.

[mmcd]

Artest put himself at risk. He is lucky to have come out of the incident without having been maimed or killed. Attacking someone who is standing in a crowd of drunk and angry people who don't like you very much is just stupid.

He didn't put the fans at risk, he put himself at risk. He could have easily ended up with several dozen people kicking the living [censored] out of him.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest put himself at risk. He is lucky to have come out of the incident without having been maimed or killed. Attacking someone who is standing in a crowd of drunk and angry people who don't like you very much is just stupid.

He didn't put the fans at risk, he put himself at risk. He could have easily ended up with several dozen people kicking the living [censored] out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said. Detroit what.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
And in a way, weren't all the "fans" who participated in whatever way, by egging on the fracas, by throwing beer and garbage, and by going on the court, "guilty by association".

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones that participated are certainly guilty, but what are they guilty of? In my view, they are guilty of being irresponsible jerk offs. In the end, that may not be grounds for self-defense. Just because people are bastards, doesn't mean that you can go around decking them (or whatever). If that was the case my face would be in much worse shape than it is today. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's not right, but we do try to keep as civilized as possible, correct? Be better than those jerks, and don't let them bring you down to their level. I think Artest could have handled it better, but that doesn't mean he was wrong for reacting badly, or wanting to take a swing at somebody. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bobby Digital]

The palace doesn't serve bottles of anything, it is all plastic like in many stadiums. Sure artest was defending himself, but he wasn't defending himself from physical attacks. He was defending himself from looking like a fool. He acted out of anger and wanted some revenge.

What do you think happens if Ron Artest stands up and just points the fan out to security? The game probably plays out and then the pacers get booed as they leave. Instead Artest, as Blaha put it, turns into a madman and runs into the stands. This is what triggered everything else, sure the fan was wrong but if artest hadn't snapped this would have hardly been a story.

When everyone else saw the fans and Detroit getting attacked they reacted somewhat violently. If I was at the tunnel I woulda been tossing popcorn and cups too. Maybe not if I had a can of mace in front of me but you get the idea. Eff Ron Artest.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
The palace doesn't serve bottles of anything, it is all plastic like in many stadiums. Sure artest was defending himself, but he wasn't defending himself from physical attacks. He was defending himself from looking like a fool. He acted out of anger and wanted some revenge.

What do you think happens if Ron Artest stands up and just points the fan out to security? The game probably plays out and then the pacers get booed as they leave. Instead Artest, as Blaha put it, turns into a madman and runs into the stands. This is what triggered everything else, sure the fan was wrong but if artest hadn't snapped this would have hardly been a story.

When everyone else saw the fans and Detroit getting attacked they reacted somewhat violently. If I was at the tunnel I woulda been tossing popcorn and cups too. Maybe not if I had a can of mace in front of me but you get the idea. Eff Ron Artest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, but you forgot to add "Detroit what." In the future, be sure to end all your correspondence when defending the D with "Detroit what."

[andyfox]

Artest was not the victim of a violent crime. He was the victim of a plastic cup being thrown at him. No "glass" as thrown. He didn't need to defend himself. Defend himself from what? Another cup? The guy who threw it was far away from him. There is no way this is self defense.

No fan came onto the floor until after Artest and Jackson went into the stands.

Artest was the perpetrator of the violence.

[andyfox]

He wasn't attacked. Something was thrown at him. Going into the stands to punch somebody has nothing to do with defending himself. Again, I ask, defending himself from what? From a guy at least 15 feet away doing what?. Getting another cup of water?

In all my posts, I have never suggested giving a free pass to the fans. All who took part should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[andyfox]

The shower the players got was because they went into the stands to wreak havoc and because O'Neill sucker punched somebody.

[andyfox]

His livelihood isn't being taken away. He can play in any other preofessional league he wants. He could play in Europe of Asia.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Artest got shoved by Wallace and didnt retaliate, and instead pulled the sweet move (imo) of laying on the scorers table.

[/ QUOTE ]

his laying on that table was asking for this thing to elevate.

imo, this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit. other than that, indiana was our biggest road block to getting back to the finals. hopefully there will be some season suspensions, or, if not season, at least long enough so that we finish with a better record.

this could have happened anywhere, and anyone who says that its the fans fault is an idiot.

oh, and detroit what (for ac slater)

[Clarkmeister]

"this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit."

Nah, we all already knew what the Pistons and Detroit fans are all about. The team has always lacked class and the Detroit sports fans have always been riot-hungry idiots. The track record is clear, and these events merely confirm that nothing has changed.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. That's the only reason this would suck for Detroit. Otherwise, you guys made out pretty damn well from it. Congratulations.

Attention all NBA fans! All you have to do in order to knock your biggest rival out of contention is to pour beer on them until they charge the stands! That's it! Screw just positively supporting your team. That's for suckers.

Detriot what? Detriot my sweaty grundle.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
hopefully there will be some season suspensions, or, if not season, at least long enough so that we finish with a better record.

this could have happened anywhere, and anyone who says that its the fans fault is an idiot.

oh, and detroit what (for ac slater)

[/ QUOTE ]

Following this post, all your opinions on this incident have lost 100% of their credibility.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hopefully there will be some season suspensions, or, if not season, at least long enough so that we finish with a better record.

this could have happened anywhere, and anyone who says that its the fans fault is an idiot.

oh, and detroit what (for ac slater)

[/ QUOTE ]

Following this post, all your opinions on this incident have lost 100% of their credibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

if only i could find some way to express to you just how much you have broken my heart.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
"this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit."

Nah, we all already knew what the Pistons and Detroit fans are all about. The team has always lacked class and the Detroit sports fans have always been riot-hungry idiots. The track record is clear, and these events merely confirm that nothing has changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apocalypse now!

Detroit what.

[Edge34]

Seriously, though, what a great supporter of your team - knowing the Pacers are so much better that you have to say "I hope the Pacers' players are gone for long enough to give us a shot at beating them".

I don't need to break your heart. Your opinions on what went on at/after the game, and on anything related to it, are meaningless.

Detroit? (Classy?) What?

I remind you that the Pistons are the team everybody will say has the reputation as the dirtiest in the league.

"I didn't start it. I just played the game," Wallace said Saturday before learning of his suspension.

This guy's so full of it, he should be a politician.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
"this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit."

Nah, we all already knew what the Pistons and Detroit fans are all about. The team has always lacked class and the Detroit sports fans have always been riot-hungry idiots. The track record is clear, and these events merely confirm that nothing has changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly what im talking about.

obviously i dont approve of anything that happened. there were "riot hungry idiots" at that game, but to label all detroit fans so is just wrong. i can see how its so easy to do this, so i probably wont go too far out of my way to try to defend us. seems pointless.

people do stupid things when emotions are high, im sure everybody that was involved in any way has their regrets.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
knowing the Pacers are so much better

[/ QUOTE ]

wow i dont remember saying that. (i do remember this (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/series?series=detlal) .)

[A_C_Slater]

Joe Dumars was just on the local news. He was telling all Pistons fans to physically attack anyone seen wearing a Pacer's jersey on site.

Detroit what.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
knowing the Pacers are so much better

[/ QUOTE ]

wow i dont remember saying that. (i do remember this (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/series?series=detlal) .)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. You guys beat the Lakers after a grueling series against the Pacers that you were lucky to win. And you're right, you didn't actually admit the Pacers were better, but if they weren't, why would you have to hope for the Pacers suspensions to be long enough that you win more games? Pretty sad if you ask me. Reread your own post and you MIGHT understand me this time.

This incident was about much, much more than just the Pistons and the Pacers. I won't be part of it degenerating into who's better, the Pistons fans like you thumping their chests about LAST season's title, or Pacers fans like I could be talking about how we DRUBBED the Pistons AT Detroit, so badly. Without Reggie (for whatever that's worth these days, he's still a heck of a player, but not what he was 10 years ago, admittedly.)

Detroit, so what.

-Edge

[A_C_Slater]

The whole incident was merely a calculated ploy to make sure that the Pacer's would be crippled for the rest of the season. What you saw as irrational behavior on the part of the fans was, in reality, a systematic and diabolical plan carried out to perfection. Those bumbling Pacer's fell right into the trap. Morons.

Detroit what.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't be part of it degenerating into who's better, the Pistons fans like you thumping their chests about LAST season's title, or Pacers fans like I could be talking about how we DRUBBED the Pistons AT Detroit, so badly. Without Reggie (for whatever that's worth these days, he's still a heck of a player, but not what he was 10 years ago, admittedly.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The NBA regular season doesn't matter. All the matters

Detroit NBA Championships - 3
Indiana - 0


And seriously, Ron Artest is literally insane and that's where this argument should have ended.


Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeetroit, WHAT!

[Richard Tanner]

Ok, so let me ask you this, if a second thing or a third thing is thrown, when is he under attack. At what point is the line drawn?

Cody

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so let me ask you this, if a second thing or a third thing is thrown, when is he under attack. At what point is the line drawn?

Cody

[/ QUOTE ]

You beat me to it, but to listen to AndyFox, its not until somebody HITS him from close range either. And what's close enough to defend? 10 feet? 3 feet? 1 foot? On top of you?

Throwing things doesn't count. Or maybe if its a little harder? Chair? No, not quite hard enough...brick? We'll think about it. (And yes, I know nobody has a brick in the stadium, I'm just making a point).

This is just a way of putting more blame on Artest than the retarded fans who, had they kept their minds and not been so drunkenly idiotic, shouldn't have thrown things in the first place. I mean, things get thrown on fields and at players all the time, what's the worst that ever happens to them, seriously? They get thrown out of the game, maybe they don't get to come back that season. Big friggin' loss. Maybe its about time someone gives that stupid drunk fan a reason to second-guess his "out of hand game" actions - you're not just gonna get tossed for assaulting players, you COULD get your ass whipped.

-Edge

[DCIAce]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Ron Artest: No punishment, self-defence


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. It's not self-defense if you go out of your way to track someone down and attack them. Self defense would be to get the hell off the court ASAP. That was retaliation, not self-defense (seriously now, walking into a crowd of angry people isn't defending yourself).

Also, I don't think the nerdy white guy threw the beer in the first place, in which case, Artest went into the stands and slammed an innocent fan's head into the seats. If the cameras show that that guy didn't throw the cup, Artest should go to jail.

I'll be completely annoyed if Artest isn't suspended for the season at a bare minimum. Kick his time-bomb ass out of the league for all I care. You're not "threatening his livelihood".. he said that he didn't need the NBA all of a week ago. This whole pathetic ordeal probably just boosted the sales of his album, too.

[West]

Just saw the clip again, and I think I saw some spray when the plastic bottle hit Artest...so I don't think it was empty.

[andyfox]

It's been established that the guy who threw the cup was drunk? The guy Artest accosted was apparently not the guy who threw the cup anyway.

Obviously, there would be a difference between somebody throwing a cup of water and somebody throwing, let's say, a brick. Exactly what was done is significant.

Let's keep in mind what happened. A fan threw a cup of beverage. Artest then went into the stands to begin the violence.

I agree with you that throwing things has been tolerated for too long. But by allowing a player to go into the stands to "retaliate" is to make the response worse than the initial act.

[andyfox]

"Self defense would be to get the hell off the court ASAP."

Exactly. When things are thrown at baseball games, the manager calls his teams off the field into the safety of the dugout until order is restored. Also, let's keep in mind, it was one cup that was thrown. Everything else ensued when Artest and Jackson went into the stands.

[Clarkmeister]

"this whole thing only sucks because now everybody is going to get all these false impressions about detroit."

Good article on this from the Detroit Free Press.

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm1472_20041120.htm

[MarkL444]

more than anything i just wish they caught the idiot who threw that chair (from what i hear, all cameras missed it). that person should do time.