Is PlayerView against Party TOS?

[sillyarms]

I've been reading WinHoldem cheaters foiled (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1279784&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1 ) . They are taking steps to crack down on bots. Will playerview be included in this sweep? I know pokertracker is officialy allowed but I don't have any information about playerview. Mabye amirpc or CT11 could possibly e-mail party and ask? I myself am sort of afraid of being the test case. I would hate to have my bankroll confiscated just so I can see someones vpip on the screen instead of in the game time window.

silly

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been reading WinHoldem cheaters foiled (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1279784&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1 ) . They are taking steps to crack down on bots. Will playerview be included in this sweep? I know pokertracker is officialy allowed but I don't have any information about playerview. Mabye amirpc or CT11 could possibly e-mail party and ask? I myself am sort of afraid of being the test case. I would hate to have my bankroll confiscated just so I can see someones vpip on the screen instead of in the game time window.

silly

[/ QUOTE ]

PlayerView does not use any information that is collected from the screen. It uses the same information that is provided by party to every user and is allowed to be used in PokerTracker. It is not any kind of artificial intelligence or bot, it is simply displaying aspects from the game time window is what could be considered a mostly-transparent window overlapping a game window. I don't see any way how it could be against the TOS if the game time window is allowed.

Freakin

[ghostface]

Also there is no way that party could detect that you are running it. If they tried to it would probably be in violation of some kind of privacy rights.

[sillyarms]

WinHoldEm Thread (http://www.winholdem.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426&sid=69fd72228a6a5ba8a6941e9627 2bb01b)

Party Poker Terms and Conditions (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html)

[ QUOTE ]
6. Artificial Intelligence.
We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence (non-human) to play on our site. Such programs are often designed to send information about cards or players to an external program. Information sent to an outside program is not permitted. The company will take measures to prevent and detect the use of such programs using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player’s computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party can see your desktop screen and receive a list of your running programs. What will they think when they see my screen with all kinds of numbers scattered everywhere and some strang application called playerview running. I'm for online casino's combating cheating and I am personally willing to sacrifice some privacy to do so. But, I don't want to get caught in the crossfire for using playerview.


silly

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence (non-human) to play on our site

[/ QUOTE ]

[ghostface]

I certainly think that Party would first give warning for this type of thing since you could do thid kind of stuff without PT even if you were dedicated to having stats on people. Theres no reason this shouldnt be allowed. All the information used to compile this program is given to us by the poker site itself. I think what they are worried about the most is a program that reads the cards realtime and does something about that (i.e. bot)

[pfkaok]

Plus WINholdem was a system that allowed the bots to collude with one another, which is clearly cheating by any standards.

Playerview does nothing of the sort

[CT11]

The commonly held belief is that party only cares if you take real time information from it's program. Because PT and PV use only the HHFs there is no real time information. It is certainly possible that party will see all the numbers on your screen shot and wonder what it is but once they figure out what it is they shouldn't care.

~CT

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
It is certainly possible that party will see all the numbers on your screen shot and wonder what it is...

[/ QUOTE ]

... could be just someone with photoshop and a lot of time on their hands.

The important question is, does PlayerView make baby Jesus cry?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
The commonly held belief is that party only cares if you take real time information from it's program. Because PT and PV use only the HHFs there is no real time information. It is certainly possible that party will see all the numbers on your screen shot and wonder what it is but once they figure out what it is they shouldn't care.

~CT

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Poker Office (Poker Tracker's competitor) took data not from the screen or HHF's, they used the chat window. I read this to be a violation of Party's TOS, however Party does not view this as a violation. You can send them an email to verify, I did.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[kiddo]

What Pokertracker and PlayerView does could all be done with pencil and paper. If I keep track of all the players I meet, what can they say?

Its like saying u are not allowed to think more, better and faster then the other players at the table because then u will have an edge.

[Lucien Jacky]

I sent this note to party support the reply doesn't clearly answer the question. I think I will still use it doesn't change partys software of interact with the software except for using it to position the data.

Dear Lucien,

Thank you for contacting us.

We like to inform you that we do not encourage any third party software to influence our games and it is not acceptable.

We also have necessary software recognition procedures built into our software to recognize and detect any kind of tampering with the software. Every player will have to win by their skill and a little bit of luck.

Rest assured, we have taken necessary measures to protect the site against hackers and miscreants. It is not possible for anyone to hack into our software as we use 128 bit encryption to ensure highest level of security and privacy of your data. All players information is kept confidential and is not shared or sold to third parties. Our state-of-the art player identification and controlled access login ensure maximum account safety.

Our site is secured by Thawte, the second largest Certification Authority worldwide, which confirms the authenticity of our site and ensures that the information exchanged with you is private and entirely protected from being viewed or tampered with.

However, if you feel suspicious about any particular players playing trends, please send us an email with the necessary details and reasoning so that we can go ahead and look into the matter further.


If you have any questions or suggestions, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Care Department at any time. We are here 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Rekha
Poker Customer Care

--Original Message--
From:
Date: 2004-11-30 06:19
To: tech@partypoker.com
Subject: PlayerView on Party poker[#2020334]

I was wondering if using the program PlayerView was a violation of your
rules. PlayerView displays statistics over the player icons. The
statistics are imported from from PokerTracker which is complied from
hand history information. I want to make sure that I am not violating
site rules. On another note thank you for tracking down and
confiscating accounts funds from WinHoldem users and please continue
going after players using such software the presence of bots online is
in my the biggest threat to online poker today.

Cheers,

[soah]

If there's one thing I learned from working with people who barely speak English, it's to make your point clearly without making any references to anything else at all. They'll latch onto words and phrases that they recognize so you better be damn sure that the word they understand is what you're actually talking about. Partypoker support has never heard of PlayerView, but they certainly know what WinHoldEm is, so that's what they responded to.

[DavidC]

Actually... I don't think it even interacts with party's software... just with Windows O/S (to get the co-ordinates for the window position so that they can draw on it)... not sure though.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Party can see your desktop screen and receive a list of your running programs. What will they think when they see my screen with all kinds of numbers scattered everywhere and some strang application called playerview running.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, this is what worries me a little. I don't think Party would have a problem with PlayerView if they knew what it was. If they looked at a screenshot like the ones they took from the WinHoldEm users, however, they might think we actually hacked their poker client software.

Has anyone sent them a link to the PlayerView website and asked if it was OK (in an email that doesn't mention anything about WinHoldEm /images/graemlins/smile.gif)?

[MicroBob]

Sigh...this is a very silly thread.


you do realize that even the people who used the bots were only given warnings, right?

if you're that afraid of it then don't use it.
But I really don't think anyone has anything to be concerned about.

You are using a way to keep YOUR notes on the screen instead of in the notes-box. This is NOT a big deal.

[DeezNutz3]

I agree with Microbob 100%. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh...this is a very silly thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not silly to exercise a little caution when you regularly keep over 10K on an online poker site.

[ QUOTE ]
you do realize that even the people who used the bots were only given warnings, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I thought their money was confiscated. It should have been.

[ QUOTE ]
You are using a way to keep YOUR notes on the screen instead of in the notes-box. This is NOT a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, and it's why I said I didn't think Party would have a problem with it if they knew what it was. All I was saying is that it might LOOK like something else if all they saw was a screenshot.

[Joshua]

According to a reply from PartyPoker they allow programs which only displays statistics. Full reply:

Thank you for contacting PartyPoker.com Customer Care with your
concerns and allowing us to clarify our stand.

At the outset let me explain to you that information procured from
PartyPoker through legitimate accounts which in turn are entitled to
receive any game records of their play (as long as its for their
analysis/use) is allowed.

We categorically state that we do not allow any information to be
downloaded without our authorization or consent to the intentions behind it.

As part of our initiative to block artificial intelligence or
prohibited software/programs that might give players an undue advantage over the
others on the table by taking decisions or actually playing, we have
proceeded to monitor and block the use of such software/programs from
running in conjunction with our PartyPoker.com client.
We are constantly looking for ways to stop such programs from running
with our software by making our client incompatible with these
applications. We have actively implemented measures to stop such programs in the
past and would constantly do so in the future.

For programs which displays player statistics and simply calculates
poker odds we currently do not have restrictions to stop such applications
from running in conjunction with our software.

In regards to our concern on 'the use of robotic and computer based
software at their site', we would like to mention that we have proactively
implemented security measures to identify and block such applications
from running in conjunction with our poker software. As part of this
initiative we have recently implemented technical changes that would
ensure that known BOT applications are identified, detected and rendered
useless.

To sum it up we presently have restrictions/countermeasures on all
known BOT application but not on other software which merely calculate
poker odds or display player statistics derived from information acquired
by legitimate accounts with no ill intentions.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact
us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist
you.