ATs. large pot. party 15

[sublime]

good table. button has been unnotcied by me but my stats say he is a decent player(tight preflop anyways) UTG1 is VERY loose and aggressive preflop and postflop. the rest of the table would have to quailify as loose/semi aggressive.

hero is in BB with AT /images/graemlins/club.gif

4 limpers and a poster in LP, the SB completes. i raise and all call to the button who 3-bets (this confused me) I call (question #1, where does one draw the line for capping here? AQs and i would, AJs i would think about it a lot longer thani did for AT) sb folds

6 players to the flop for 9BB

5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif t /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

i check, utg1 bets, 2 calls, poster and button fold, i check raise, all call

13BB 4 to the turn

8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, all call

17BB four to the river

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
checked around. do i deserve to be beaten for the river check?

[ActionBob]

You don't deserve to be beaten, but I'd probably bet the river here.

-ActionBob

[mmcd]

all call to the button who 3-bets (this confused me)

Most likely a small-medium pocket pair or a suited connecter.

[flytrap]

I don't think checking is that bad. You have 4 opponents, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that one of them has a queen. And I would hate getting raised on the river here.

[sublime]

Most likely a small-medium pocket pair or a suited connecter

yeah i almost "knew" what he had when he did it (well a range) but what surprised me was somebody who had a VP$IP that i respect would do something like that.

[mmcd]

It's a good play with 6 opponents in for 2 bets and the button. It's not overly laggish or anything, just solid poker.

[sublime]

wouldnt raising to begin with be "solid" poker?

[mmcd]

A strong case can certainly be made for raising 4 limpers with these types of hands but I think they probably gain more value by 3 betting a 7-way pot then by raising a 4-way pot. I think its a case of him passing on a marginally +ev raise, but being unable to pass on the clearer +ev raise when it comes around back to him 7-way.

[PassiveCaller]

i bet the river here most of the time and expect a fair amount of worse ten kickers, 99,77, A6,A5, A8, and some various suited connectors to call at the very least in terms of hands I beat (these are reasonable call hands too). In a good game there could even be some less fathomable call hands too. This is definitely enough for me to bet.

In terms of pre-flop this is an easy raise and I'm curious who would cap.. I mean AT suited does rate to win more then it's fair share here and if you put the button on a suited connector this may even make this even more desirable.

[amulet]

if i am reading it correctly, he was fine reraising with a medium pair. there were 7 people in, therfore, his positive expections over time by getting an extra bet in from that field is better then if he just called. he is 7.5 to 1 to flop a set, because of implied odds we all play medium pairs with when 5 are seening the flop. his implaied odds make his reraise correct, unless he thinks you cap it, and he looses 3 or 4 people, which won't happen. again, he makes more raising there then by calling (taking into account every time he is in that type of situation over his poker life).

i do not like your check/raise on the flop, it is a mistake. you are not that strong with a pair of T's with A kicker vs that big a field. many cards hurt you, any spade, j, q, k, can put you in 2nd place easily (assuming your 1st post flop.) now by making the pot so large, you make it correct for people to chase (pot odds) and you only have a pair of tens. bet out, hope people fold, or someone raises on a draw and others fold. to many players, and to many larger cards can hurt.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hi sublime,

my advice is generally unsophisticated, but bet the river homie.

[sublime]

amulet-

who said he had a medium pair? and AGAIN why nit just raise to begin with? if he has 76s or something he is hurting his implied odds. i dont really care to discuss the preflop play of my opponent though.

i checked the flop with the intention of raising a LP bet. i got bet to my left so i improvised. pretty routine IMO.

thanks for clarifying what pot odds were BTW, i knew my game was lacking something.

[AceHigh]

I think this is a good place to wait to the turn to check/raise.

Bet the river, because you probably have to call a bet and it will get checked thru if your hand is good.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
who said he had a medium pair? and AGAIN why nit just raise to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of very good reasons to limp, rather than raise, from the button after 4 limpers with, say, pocket 7s-several of which have been mentioned already, and others being easy enough to figure out.

Likewise, there are plenty of good and obvious reasons to 3-bet, rather than call, from the button with pocket 7s when you're looking at a probable 6 or 7-way pot. Both plays are fine, and don't contradict one another at all.

[amulet]

no need to get mad. i responded to your saying "this confused me" (when he reraised), If he had mid pair an other poster respond, i was explaining.

i was not trying to upset you by explaining why your check raise was incorrect, but i guess i did from your snippy response. i think you should learn from that, as opposed to moving on to the river. learning what your 1st post flop mistake was will save you $ over time. good luck.

[ActionBob]

Ease up a little, dude. Considering you couldn't understand why someone you considered a solid player might make this kind of play preflop with some hands like medium pairs and such, he was (rightfully) trying to explain it a little beter for you.

There's always more for all of us to learn.

-ActionBob

[sublime]

sorry man. had bad week at the tables and in my personal life. i was being a jerk, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

again, i apologize /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sublime]

your right bob, i let other factors control my fingers when i was typing a response.

sorry for being snappy/jerk guys.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
i checked the flop with the intention of raising a LP bet. i got bet to my left so i improvised. pretty routine IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem I have with the check raise plan is in this instance there is a good chance he will take a free card as it looks like he 3 bet with a smallish pocket pair. Its probably pretty close as to which way to go between betting vs.check-raising in this case.

[ActionBob]

We all have those days. Go suck out on a few people, it will make you feel better /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-ActionBob

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Ease up a little, dude. Considering you couldn't understand why someone you considered a solid player might make this kind of play preflop with some hands like medium pairs and such, he was (rightfully) trying to explain it a little beter for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to see a little more discussion of making this play with a suited connector, because it strikes me as a poor play and the fact that Bob (whose play I admire) seems to like it has me feeling like I'm missing something.

scrub

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
4 limpers and a poster in LP, the SB completes. i raise and all call to the button who 3-bets (this confused me) I call (question #1, where does one draw the line for capping here? AQs and i would, AJs i would think about it a lot longer thani did for AT) sb folds

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd definitely cap here. Button obviously doesn't have you beaten and no-one else limp-reraised so it's very unlikely you're up against strong hands here against loose players. If you cap, you get to make the whole field who have called two bets face 2 cold again, you've got a greater than necessary pot equity (which is why you raised from the BB in the first place) so if they all call, great. If some of them fold and you get some dead money in the pot, great.

I think you should cap with any hand that was strong enough to raise from the BB.

EDITED TO ADD: I think the above logic dictates that a pre-flop cap is CLEARLY the best play. Someone better than me tell me if/why this is wrong.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i had a hand example outlying your exact thoughts in the ss forum wehre i raised 99 in the small blind after like 6 limpers. the button 3-bet and i capped. is 99 a capping hand? no, but it was pretty clear i had the button beat and likely everybody else beat too.

but the problem with these kind of caps without a real monster hand like say AA-JJ and AKs, is that it becomes difficult to play postflop if you don't find a favorable board.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry man. had bad week at the tables and in my personal life. i was being a jerk, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

again, i apologize

[/ QUOTE ]


not capping preflop: -$90

not check-raising the turn: -$90

not betting the river: -$60

free 2+2 therapy to improve your mental health: priceless

[sublime]

free 2+2 therapy to improve your mental health: priceless

LOL! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[vmacosta]

True, but I think there is a diffference between ATs and 99. With the 99, you have just turned a bigish pair into a small pair praying to flop a set or straight draw. With the ATs, you have the ability to make a power pair or a monster draw. I still think you cap with both hands but the ATs probably has greater EV.

[Senor Choppy]

Going for a check-raise with a hand this vulnerable and a pot this big is terrible.