Ladies in the BB first round of tourney - play along with me

[ZootMurph]

Early first round, third or fourth hand on Party. Stacks basically the same around 1000. 10/15 blinds. 3 limpers to button, who min raises to 30. SB calls, I have two black ladies. What do I do?

[Che]

Make it 200.

If reraised, get all your chips in the middle.

If called, push on any flop with no A and play poker if an A flops. In other words, you'll have to fold against multiple callers, but you might claim the A for yourself if you are headsup (which is unlikely) and first to act.

Of course, you might slow down a little if you spike a set, but I'd probably bet out against multiple callers even if I hit top set.

Later,
Che

[ZootMurph]

I only raised to 150... one limper and button called.

Flop is Q8A rainbow. I'm up... what do I do now?

[Kaz The Original]

Triple up.

[adanthar]

I'd have raised to 125 so I guess you're in the middle /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'd try a weak lead and see if button wants to raise his ace. Something like 150-200 into the 450 pot?

[aceragclubs]

I'd also raise to 200 preflop, that seems like enough to get most hands out. A surprising amount of people will call raises to 100 and sometimes even 150 on party. I like the weak lead suggestion on the turn. If someone raises, I'd probably 'think' for a second, call, and check-raise the turn all-in.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is Q8A rainbow. I'm up... what do I do now?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll assume by "up" you meant that you were next to act...on that flop I would be "up" in more ways than one.

-SossMan

I like a 1/2 pot bet here on the flop.

[Che]

Bet 300. If either opponent has AK-AT, they'll push and you've got them. If they don't have an A or 88, you're probably not getting any more out of them anyway.

If they flat call the 300 rather than pushing, I probably check the turn to feign weakness and hope they push in. If they check behind, I'm getting all-in on the river.

Later,
Che

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have raised to 125 so I guess you're in the middle

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a pot-sized raise is 165. I overbet that at Party since the goofballs that will call ~150 with ATo/KJs/66 will also call 200 so you might as well make them pay the extra chips to make up for the times when they catch you with some hand you didn't believe they could possibly have.

Against less loose players a close-to-pot-sized raise (125-150) would be my move. Early in one of the big Sunday Stars tourneys, for example. But in most online tourneys, overbetting the pot against multiple limpers plus minraise is the way to go with a premium hand IMHO.

Later,
Che

[ZootMurph]

The pot is just over 500. I make it 300 to go. Limper folds, button calls. Turn is 8... board is not Q8A(8), two hearts on board. Just button and me left. We both have 550 left in chips, and the pot is now 1100. What do you do?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is just over 500. I make it 300 to go. Limper folds, button calls. Turn is 8... board is not Q8A(8), two hearts on board. Just button and me left. We both have 550 left in chips, and the pot is now 1100. What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would check here just about every time.

[adanthar]

A flush draw held by an idiot is gonna call off all his chips now, whereas he'll fold the river so I push /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Any ace will also call since the eights just counterfeited your jack kicker.

edit: Although Sossman knows far more about MTT's than I do...so, benefits of not pushing:
-get a bluff from a guy with complete trash (but what could he possibly have to call the flop? The case Q? JT..but JT held by an idiot calls, too?)
-Save 500 chips for when the river brings an A
-Possible river value bet (maybe the guy with the Q calls off 100 more)

I don't know. Doesn't seem to be enough not to push (after thinking about it for 20 seconds, of course.)

[ZootMurph]

I agree with SossMan... I check this thing. The only things I have to worry about are AA or 88 at this point being ahead of me. So I check and he bets all in. I think back to how the hand played, and he bet a minimum bet on the button (a button raise, AA slowplay, or possibly 88...).

Here's the hand so far in review:

4 or 5 hands into a Party tourney. Stacks about 1000 each. Two stacks not around starting are not in this hand. Blinds 10/15.

3 limpers, button min raises to 30. SB calls. I'm in BB with two black Queens. I raise to 150. One limper and button call. Flop Q8A rainbow. I bet out 300 into a 510 pot. Limper folds, button calls. Turn is 8, putting 2 hearts on board. I check, button pushes 575 into 1110 pot and is all in. I have 550 chips left.

Frankly, this is an easy call for me, and I make the call. There are very very few hands I'm afraid of here... I'm drawing to one out against AA and 88, and KK and any Ace has 2 outs. Nothing else to be afraid of. My trap complete, I make the call. But who was trapped? Results later.

This is where I really wanted advice and discussion... The rest is SOP, in my opinion (with the exception of exact amounts to bet). First, the thought of the mini raise flitters through my mind, but very quickly and it's gone. I forget about AA as being a reasonable holding. So here, I believe any reasonable bet will basically pot commit the button, and I REALLY don't want to scare him out. Also, I'm not afraid of a free card at this point. There are so few cards that I'm afraid of that I'm willing to give the free card. And, if he hangs himself by pushing as he did... great. Again, any bet I make MAY scare him out, but he may think I'm bluffing the river with my all in and call with an Ace or maybe even the flush, if it hits.

Finally, on the river if the turn checks through, the only card I fear is an Ace. If an ace comes I'd check and fold to an all in, still having enough chips to compete. Anything else I'd bet 150, hoping to get a call if he has nothing, or induce an all in reraise if he actually has some type of hand. Not afraid of a King, because I'd think Kings would push on the turn with me showing weakness...

[adanthar]

Here's the thing: There are lots of hands that will legitimately trap each other here. Maybe he has aces, maybe he has AQ and knows he has you beat unless you have 88, maybe he has an 8 and knows he has your AQ beat...it doesn't matter. If he has AQ or better the money's going in.

Since you have nothing to be afraid of because you have a full house, the question reverts to 'will he call and how much?' Well, so far, he's minraised, called a big raise and called the threatening flop. 98% of the time in a Party tournament I can put a phone over his name right now.

Here, I can think of a few hands that will call on the turn but not on the river, MAYBE one that folds to a bet on the turn (Ax, but the 8 actually helped Ax and he's played Ax like a calling station so far so why would he fold?) and not one that would go all in that doesn't already call on the turn.

The exception is a LAG that's gonna all in with KQ but is not going to call one. Meh, I'll take my chances rather than let JT or xxh off the hook.

Thoughts? The weakest link I see is my assumption that Ax calls the turn.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, on the river if the turn checks through, the only card I fear is an Ace. If an ace comes I'd check and fold to an all in, still having enough chips to compete. Anything else I'd bet 150, hoping to get a call if he has nothing, or induce an all in reraise if he actually has some type of hand. Not afraid of a King, because I'd think Kings would push on the turn with me showing weakness...


[/ QUOTE ]

Something doesn't jive with that paragraph.

You chips are waaaaay too shallow to be able to get away from this hand on any turn action....after checking the turn, if it gets checked through, the only way I'm not getting all my chips in the middle is if the river is an ace.

[ZootMurph]

adanthar, you have a point about betting the turn. But I'm more willing to let some hands off that MAY not call the turn anyway in order to give him enough rope to string himself up. Additionally, there are several cards that could come off that, at worst, he may find interesting enough to bluff at. With that big pot, I know I'd want to try to take it down if possible... which is why the small river bet... again giving him a chance to hang himself or at least give me more chips.

[ QUOTE ]
You chips are waaaaay too shallow to be able to get away from this hand on any turn action....after checking the turn, if it gets checked through, the only way I'm not getting all my chips in the middle is if the river is an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

SossMan... that whole paragraph you quoted was about what I'd do on the river... I'm definitely all in on any turn action, period and end of story... And, as I said in that paragraph, I agree with you and I'm only worrying about an Ace on the river. Not worried about anything else.

Anyway, the story end with the button showing A8, and he doesn't hit one of his 3 outs. I win (yay!). In this case, he was in bad shape and would have called my allin bet on the turn anyway.

I'm still interested in more discussion of the turn check and possible river play here.

[SossMan]

zoot,
the paragraph i quoted didn't make sense. You said that if the turn got checked through that you would only be scared if an ace came on the river (indicating that he checked an ace). Then in the next sentence you say that you wouldn't fear a king since you think KK wouldn't have checked the turn...why would KK not check through the turn, but an Ace would?

[ZootMurph]

[ QUOTE ]
Not afraid of a King, because I'd think Kings would push on the turn with me showing weakness...

[/ QUOTE ]

My quote was the Kings would PUSH (all of his chips into the pot), on the turn when I check to him, because I am showing weakness.