Was this a newbian mistake?

[four20]

I was playing in a satellite for the US Daily at pokerroom and this hand came up.

I was dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in LP and it is folded to me. I raise 3xBB and the button and SB fold. The BB calls.

The river is dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif. It is early in the tourney so I decide to take it down right there and not fool around with a draw. I raise ~75% pot and the BB calls with minimal hesitation. I don't have any kind of read so I assume he is drawing to the flush. The turn is a blank so I bet ~75% pot and again I am called. The river brings another brick and again I fire asumming the BB will fold. He comes over the top and raises all in (he doesn't have me covered but a call will cripple me). I assumed he was a weaker player (OK... weaker than me) and I called. He shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I exit the tourney shortly after.

My questions are:
1) Is there any way to sniff out a full house without going to the showdown?
2) Was it a stupid call on the river?
3) Was #2 a stupid question?

Thanks for your help!

[j0wlev]

Your play was fine, the BB's is a different story. You may win a nice pot like this one check/calling at NL but not often.

In your situation, I woulda checked right behind the BB. I bet he was expecting you to bet in this situation and you did.

Depending what the stakes were at the time, there was 6.5bb in the pot. I find a lot of SB players will check trips on the flop into limpers or raisers, trying to induce a bet. This is such a bad stragegy for early tournament play. You may lose bets from those with the other pair,4s in this case, bet you gain so much action from someone sharing your trip card, who would have slowplayed it just as you had.

You have no way of knowing he flopped a boat, you had a strong hand and defined it well. Be glad the BB didn't take full advantage here. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[SossMan]

The river is dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gifA . /images/graemlins/diamond.gif


--------------------------------------------
assumed he was a weaker player (OK... weaker than me)


these statements might be self-contradicting

[Vee Quiva]

I assume he was checking to you each round since you had position?

I think this hand is pretty tough to get away from although I think I may fold early in the tournament to the raise on the river.

[four20]

My next goal is to proof read my posts!

[nightlyraver]

The real problem is that he never raised you. It's hard to tell if you are dealing with a better kicker or a full boat when the flop is paired. Remember though, you raised so he likely has something playable (I think you should have raised 4xBB since a 3xBB open raise is fairly weak and will encourage the BB to call). Also to consider, it takes a very weak player to check-call a 75% flop bet with only a flush draw. A check and flat call on the flop will get me thinking. Once you fired the 2nd barrel on the turn and he flat called, that would be setting off warning signals in my head. Your bet on the flop was foolish and unneeded. What was your purpose? If you were just trying to make him fold, what kind of hand do you put him on that he would fold in this spot? A5? A6? People with those hands will still not lay down in most cases, especially since he is not drawing, he clearly indicated on the flop and turn that he was going to call you down. If you DO put him on a flush draw, then you win the pot and he will not call ANY bet on the end - you gain nothing. The only time that you win is when he calls with a worse kicker and it doesn't seem to be the case since an A with a bad kicker will usually raise and fold to a re-raise. Always analyze your play on the end carefully since you cannot improve your hand and your oponent will not fold in many situations, but will wait till the end to check-raise in many spots. I think your flop play is fine, and so was your turn play. It was just your river play that was lacking and your pre-flop play is what got you into that mess in the first place. Remember, you WERE trying to steal in reality (or at least should have been) as an ideal case. ATo is nothing that great and the best you can hope for is winning a T-high flop on the flop or maybe floppin trip T's or two pair.

[binions]

Your preflop raise was fine.

When u get called by the BB, u have to wonder if he has a pair or an ace. If he has an ace, u have to wonder if he has u outkicked.

When you flop AdAh4h, I am not thinking I MUST bet to make a flush draw pay. Not heads up. That's a limit strategy that can apply in multiway pots in NLHE tourneys.

Instead, I am thinking how can I maximize my win with this flop. Since I raised preflop, he is going to consider that I have an ace. If I bet the flop, he is likely going to fold every hand except 44, and Ax.

So I check the flop to disguise my hand. If he has a pocket pair and hits a 2 outer on the turn, so be it. I am hoping my check will make him think I have a pocket pair below aces, and he will bluff me representing the ace.

If he checks on 4th street, I bet half the pot. If he bets, I either call, or raise him the minimum to find out where he's at.

Remember, while you have an ace, your kicker is relatively weak. This hand is strong, but not a cinch.

[SossMan]

So I check the flop to disguise my hand.

one might argue that betting disguises your hand more than checking against most players.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
So I check the flop to disguise my hand.

one might argue that betting disguises your hand more than checking against most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, betting that flop either wins you a small pot or loses you a big one.

For you to win a big pot by betting that flop, the guy has to have an A9-A5 or a heart draw that doesn't materialize.

Or maybe KK or QQ putting u on a bluff, but then again, KK or QQ probably would have re-raised preflop.

So, you are cutting it awfully thin if you hope to win a big pot by betting this flop.

[fnurt]

The third value bet is almost always a mistake in NL. It's an extra big mistake if you thought he would fold anyway, since you reopened the betting without even expecting to make any more money.

I understand the folks who want to check this flop although they are a little more advanced at NL than I am. One thing to consider is that you are in a steal position and will not necessarily be given credit for having any sort of a hand. If you would auto-bet the JT of clubs in this spot (in other words, a total miss of the flop), then you need to bet when you hit the flop as well, or else your play becomes totally transparent. On the other hand, it's fine to check it through sometimes whether you hit or miss. You just don't want to be predictable about it.

[SossMan]

I bet out at nearly every flop that I raise preflop anyway, so checking here on a AAx flop would look mighty suspish to most players, I think. I might even overbet it.

[KJS]

NT

[Sam T.]

What exactly did you think he had? It is this question that has to determine your play on the river. AX, or 44 seem to be the only candidates, unless he is an optimist on a flush draw, or cannot accept that his slow-played kings are now junk.

If he's on the flush draw, he's going to fold to the river bet, so you can forget about making money that way, so don't bother.

If he actually has a hand, the only ones you're ahead of that might call a river bet are Ax, where X is both lower than Ten, and not one of the cards on the board. For the sake of argument let's say the final board is A-4-A-2-7. You are now ahead of: A3 (four ways), A5 (four), A6 (four), A8 (four), and A9 (four)-for a total of twenty hands.

You are behind if he has: A2 (three ways), A4 (three), A7 (three), AJ (four), AQ (four), AK (four) and 44 (three), for a total of twenty-one. My maths could be off, but this looks like a coinflip.

So do you bet the river? Never bet if a raise will make you want to throw up.

Do you call? To this point you've done everything but show him your ace, yet he reraises you on the river. Either he's a serious risk-taker with a busted flush-draw who thinks he can make you fold your weak ace, or you're beat.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
NT

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