"Raising to thin the field"

[Kaz The Original]

Please explain this to me. I really think it doesn't make sense. Note, raising to charge draws more, does make sense.

[BeerMoney]

If you play seven card stud, this concept is easier to understand. For example, the pot is pretty big on 5th street, and you have a pair of 3's with an ace, and someone else appears to have kings.. If they bet into you, and there are other people in the pot, it may be wise to go ahead and raise and force others out to improve your chances of winning the pot.

[Kaz The Original]

Why wouldn't I want some yokel with Queens in the pot with me?

[KJS]

You have QJ, flop is 982. Bet to you, you raise trying to get hands like Q8,Q2, KQ, KJ, AJ, etc to fold, making your overcard outs more live.

KJS

[Dominic]

because you only have 33s. By raising, he thinks you have at least a pair of Aces...even the guy with KKs, if he's tight, might fold on later streets if you keep representing a pair of Aces. Plus, you might improve - either by hitting your Ace for real, or hitting another 3, or hitting two pair...thus beating the KK. If you don't raise and force the QQs to fold, he might make a better hand than you even while you make a better hand than the KKs.

Basically, it's a semi-bluff. You know you don't have the best hand right now, but you could have it by the end. And you've got a chance to make the guy with KKs fold.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain this to me. I really think it doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
If the pot is empty, you're right. It doesn't make sense.

As soon as there's something in the pot, there will be situations where an opponent to your left will be correct to call one bet, but incorrect to call two bets.

By raising, you deprive him of the opportunity to make money at your expense by correctly calling one bet. If he correctly folds, he doesn't make any money; and his share of the pot equity is distributed to you and the remaining players in the hand. (You may prefer that he incorrectly calls two bets; but getting him to fold is better than giving him proper odds to call.)

[Kaz The Original]

That's raising to fold a better hand, an entirely seperate concept.

[Kaz The Original]

Please use hand examples, I am simple minded.

[Kaz The Original]

Either of the outs I am drawing to (trip 3's or 3's and aces) beats the most likely hand QQ's improve to, Q's up.

In fact, assuming KK won't fold, I want QQ in to improve my odds on drawing out on KK. Naturally, if QQ becomes QQQ this is unfortunate, but the improved odds to my two pair make it worth while.

[Demana]

You're making your dirty outs clean and/or you're trying to isolate an opponent whose hand you may or may not currently have beat.

For example:

You have JT and the flop is T92.

RHO bets and you raise as you are trying to make it too expensive for the draws to stay in the hand, cutting off their pot odds. That way, if a jack hits, you have two pair and don't have to worry as much about the jack making someone else a straight.

By thinning the field, you are giving yourself the best possible chance of winning a pot that you are probably behind in because you have forced out all of the hands that could out draw you.

[maurile]

There are three of you left on the turn. There are 8 big bets in the pot.

The board is 4c Jd 3s Jh

The small blind bets out with Jc Td

You have Js Ts

The opponent on your left has 7c 5c

If you just call and the third guy also calls, the pot will have 11 big bets in it, and your pot equity will be 0.452 * 11 = 4.972 big bets.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=619480
pokenum -h jc td - js ts - 7c 5c -- 4c jd 3s jh
Holdem Hi: 42 enumerated boards containing 3s 4c Jd Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Td 0 0.00 4 9.52 38 90.48 0.452
Js Ts 0 0.00 4 9.52 38 90.48 0.452
7c 5c 4 9.52 38 90.48 0 0.00 0.095

But if you raise, causing the third guy to fold, the pot will have 12 big bets in it (assuming the first guy calls), and your pot equity will be 0.500 * 12 = 6 big bets.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=619481
pokenum -h jc td - js ts -- 4c jd 3s jh
Holdem Hi: 44 enumerated boards containing 3s 4c Jd Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Td 0 0.00 0 0.00 44 100.00 0.500
Js Ts 0 0.00 0 0.00 44 100.00 0.500

By raising, you paid one extra big bet to increase your pot equity by 1.028 big bets. So your raise made you money. And the money it made you obviously didn't come from the guy with the same hand as you, so it must have come from making the third guy fold.

I guess I chose a bad example since it was so close. Other people can provide examples where you make more than 0.028 bets -- but at least my example shows the principle.

[bilyin]

Betting JT into a flop of T92 is value betting not thinning the field.

[wdbaker]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain this to me. I really think it doesn't make sense. Note, raising to charge draws more, does make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

example: you cutoff AJo, button 87s, m1 Q10o, m2 j10o

preflop: m1 calls, m2 calls, you Raise hoping to clear out the button, sb and bb, button calls, but you succeed partly and the sb and bb fold and you have 4 to the flop instead of 6.

One of those which folded could have caught two pair drawing out or just getting a lucky flop, but with the raise their hands are not good enough to hold onto so they muck'em.

flop: j83 - M1 has belly buster str8 and would like to see the next card cheap so checks. M2 got ap piece of this with top pair medium kicker so makes a bet. me i'm in the cutoff and the bet is to me with TPTK, I raise to take out those who might like to hang around for cheap like the button who would love for a 7 or 8 to hit, or M1 who would love to catch the 9 for the str8. With any brains neither the button or M1 are going to call two cold on a whim(you hope)
so they fold and m2 calls cause he can't drop his top pair medium kicker.

which brings you heads up with just the person you want. turn and river are junk and you drag the pot betting all the way.

If the other 2 had stayed in, your chances of dragging the pot would have gone down as someone could have gotten lucky.

When you have TPTK, the last thing you want to see is a bunch of people who could draw out on your strong hand.

It just doesn't play well multiway although you may get lucky once in a while and pull a big pot with 6 people in, it is rare and -EV in my book.

Hope that all made sense
If per chance it didn't make sense or even apply then
please excuse my ignorance /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

[pergesu]

Any time you're involved in a hand and have some pot equity, and you're able to drive out another player who has some equity, then his share is spread among the remaining players. Thus driving other players out of the pot will improve your pot equity if you have any.

[wdbaker]

[ QUOTE ]
Any time you're involved in a hand and have some pot equity, and you're able to drive out another player who has some equity, then his share is spread among the remaining players. Thus driving other players out of the pot will improve your pot equity if you have any.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was trying to say in a long winded sort of way, good job /images/graemlins/grin.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

[Cosimo]

I think it's a bit more complicated than this. Although you grab a higher equity %, you may or may not be grabbing a higher equity in $.

At some point, the pot is large enough that increasing your equity % (that is, getting others to fold now or later) is worth much more in equity $ than keeping the players around -- which is only +EV if they will put in bets later when behind. Against some players, you might stand to win no more bets (i.e. your equity in future betting is 0) while if he hits you stand to lose several bets.