AJo UTG - not sure about this one

[Fiddler]

Absolute 1/2 6-max (5-handed)

CO is tight VP$IP 18% and I haven't seen him raise a single time pre-flop. But he can raise after the flop. SB is loose, VP$IP over 40% and also doesn't raise until after the flop.

I raise UTG with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, CO calls, unless I'm totally mistaken our very own Naphand (who for some reason seems to be slumming in 1/2) folds on the button and both SB and BB call.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, BB folds, I raise, CO 3-bets, SB and I call.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, I bet, CO raises, SB and I call.

I figured I had to bet if CO was pumping a flush draw but this doesn't look good.

River: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, I check and CO checks!?

I was prepared to check-fold if CO betted and SB called.

Any suggestions? Should I have checked and folded on the turn if CO bet and SB called? Bet and fold after it gets raised and cold-called again? I still tend to miss stuff like this while playing... need more practice.

[Benjamin]

After the tight CO cold calls preflop, then I'm already worried that I'm dominated. 18% VPIP doesn't allow for coldcalling with much that's worse than your AJo.

After he 3-bets the flop, I'm almost certain I'm behind, but I think there might be enough chance that we're tied or I'm ahead of ATs that I'll call. I'm looking for a jack, and I'm trying to get to showdown cheap unless I see it.

So, I'd check-call to showdown.

B.

[naphand]

There are so rarely 2 tables of $2/$4 running at one time, and if I don't fancy any of the $3/$6 (if available) I will sit into a $1/$2, as playing only 1 table sucks. I started this table and played HU for a while until it filled, which was nice. I am not too keen on mixing sites when I play as the different graphics and styles can be quite distracting.

The $1/$2 is not difficult but does require patience, I see it as light relief... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The fold I made was huge, I clocked that my J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif was dominated, it was close.... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

CO is not tight, I have him as V$IP 30% PFR 4%, which makes him "mediocre" by my ratings. SB was "loose passive" V$IP 38% PFR 0.78% (wow).

You picked a good hand to demonstrate the very typical players on this site: loose-passive cold-callers. They are the majority, along with a few tight-passives and LAGs. You will be glad to know you are one of only 6 players marked as "TAG" (eagle icon) I have for this site (up to $3/$6), and you have the best profile. Looks like you are running not great at the moment.

To the hand:

Your PF raise is fine, 2 cold calls can mean a lot but you will have the best hand most of the time, they will certainly call a flop bet with what they have in pocket.

Flop, and SB has a hand of some kind, you must raise, when 3-bet this is less likely to be a flush draw as many of these players, while some are capable of raising draws, 3-bets are rare without a made hand or a recognised LAG.

Turn makes no difference, and you are now in a tricky spot. I think you would be wrong to let this get checked through as the board is co-ordinated. The problem is, you are quite likely to have a 2nd-best hand, although getting 2:1 is not bad. SB's check means a pair, but not a great one (oops!) or a draw, looks like they just want to get to SD. If you are happy calling a raise here then bet is good, a bet also puts 2 back to SB; which probably means nothing as SB has already cold-called both streets and will again, but must be the right play (in fact, it looks like a hand straight out of SSHE). You need to respect the 3-bet, and certainly need to get to SD. It is easy to check-call here, which must be wrong, betting out looks right.

If raised and SB calls you are getting 13.5:1 to make the call, which translates to 4 outs. You have 3 outs to the J but, one of them is J /images/graemlins/club.gif, the Aces may be no good, you possibly have 3 outs to the 7 but again one of those is a /images/graemlins/club.gif. And still you could be drawing dead to a set. SB calling cold is usually nothing to worry about here, as these chooks will cold call 2nd-pair no-kicker. This is so very marginal, you could fold here, although it looks wrong there are ways to make better hands and still lose, you probably are at least 2nd here. The pot is quite large and at 13.5:1 it is a mighty fold to make with no reads. I probably call down expecting to lose. If the River is a /images/graemlins/club.gif and SB bets out or raises, I would fold.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop,you must raise, when 3-bet this is less likely to be a flush draw ..., 3-bets are rare without a made hand or a recognised LAG.
...
Turn makes no difference, ... . I think you would be wrong to let this get checked through as the board is co-ordinated. ... You need to respect the 3-bet, and certainly need to get to SD. It is easy to check-call here, which must be wrong, betting out looks right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the recommendation to bet out there. You just finished saying that the 3-bet means a made hand, so aren't chances very low that CO will check behind? The pot is big enough that if SB has any kind of decent draw he won't fold to two cold, and in fact you said he'd likely call 2 cold with second pair or whatever.

If you don't have much chance of running out SB, then what is the point of betting out on the turn when you 'are quite likely 2cnd best'?

B.

[naphand]

Because you need to present SB with 2 big bets, Hero does not have a firm read on CO (my comments were only general). 3-betting does not MEAN a made hand, I think it makes it more likely but hands like AK-8 could play this way, as well as 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif or K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, most of which Hero is ahead of.

If SB/CO is/are drawing it would be very wrong to let this get checked through, which is still a possibility. Presenting 2 bets cold to SB is not going to give him incorrect odds to call with a flush draw, but does hurt an inside straight draw (which these guys will play, and even bet on the flop). The bet on the Turn also provides more information about CO's play in general; how aggressive he is with his hands etc. will he just call here with TPTK? or a draw, will he raise again with 2-pair or better? You might be surprised at these players responses but reads are made up of more than just what they 3-bet with on the flop. In particular, CO's check behind on the River with the unlikely-4-straight board is quite revealing.

This is a tough spot, HU I think call down is OK, but when another player is also involved I really hate calling down. I much prefer Hero's line here to that taken by SB, which is terrible. Calling down against 2 opponents cannot be +EV with a hand like this, so either Hero quits or bets out and presents SB with (potentially) another hard decision. It is possible SB folds a hand like K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 on the Turn, giving Hero 2 more outs to win the hand.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down against 2 opponents cannot be +EV with a hand like this, so either Hero quits or bets out.

[/ QUOTE ]
It may or may not be optimal (depending on the range of holdings you put your opponents on), but it certainly can be +EV, even if it's not optimal.

Betting out on the turn gets you more information, but if you are not going to be able to act on it (i.e. you have a slim call of a raise, and then a crying call on the end) it isn't worth paying for it. I do like putting 2 bets to SB, but if he can't be expected to fold anything there, which you implied is true of the loose passives in this game previously, then there isn't much point unless you expect CO might raise with a worse hand than yours.

Edit: I still think that, given the original read, you are likely behind and would like to get to showdown cheap.

B.

[naphand]

I think if you are behind, you need to maximise your chance of winning the hand and that means bettting the Turn, hoping for a raise and getting SB to dump his hand.

My read of the players is different from Hero, which is part of the problem, I am trying to play this hand from Hero's perspective, my reads were just for info.

If SB is almost certainly going to call 2 cold you are going to question the point of the bet/raise scenario. Of course, SB has odds to call a flush draw, but then Hero has odds to call when it gets back to him as well, so no-one is making a mistake when the action comes back to them. BUT check-calling will give SB correct odds to call the Turn with a wider range of hands than if having to call 2 cold. Even if he is not going to fold, by betting and showing 2 big bets to CO he is making a mistake by calling more often. Of course, that may not be true for this specific hand, but overall it has to be the more (often) correct option. This is dealt with at length in HFAP and SSHE, I am hoping my interpretation is correct, I admit this is a tricky spot for Hero, but check/calling here just feels wrong to me.

Taking a cheap showdown is valid when you have a showdownable hand HU, but multiway with draws on the board it cannot be the correct line on the Turn. I think we need to present our opponents with difficult decisions as often as possible, to give them the maximum chance to make mistakes. I am not sure if there is much difference, EV wise for Hero in this hand, between folding, checking or betting but I do think by betting his opponent/s (esp. SB) have more opportunity to make mistakes, which makes betting preferable. It is significant that CO checks behind on the Turn with the 4-straight board; he might be weak enough to do this against any scary board, but it is quite possible he believes the 2 improved Hero's hand and Hero's Turn bet saved a bet on the River. If so, then SB has made a mistake by calling 2 cold on the Turn (with a lot of hands), and CO makes a mistake by not value-betting the River (with many of the hands he could be holding).

I know what the result is, but will let Fiddler post when he is ready, but the hands shown provide Hero with bags of useful information that he will be able to use profitably leter.

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]

My read of the players is different from Hero, which is part of the problem, I am trying to play this hand from Hero's perspective, my reads were just for info.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite surprised at the difference between our data on CO. Over approx. 200 hands I have him with a VP$IP of 18% and not a single pre-flop raise. He must have been getting really bad cards when I have played with him. With the data I had I thought it was pretty likely he had KQs, KJs or something like that. I've made a note of it so I don't assume he is tight/passive next time. Also good to know pumping draws isn't the standard operating procedure at Absolute.

[ QUOTE ]

I know what the result is, but will let Fiddler post when he is ready, but the hands shown provide Hero with bags of useful information that he will be able to use profitably leter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, this hand and your observations about the Absolute players should be useful.

As for the hand: CO showed A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for a flopped two pair and SB showed AQo and MHING.

Thanks!

[naphand]

This hand alone shows that CO is not a tight player. No decent player would call A5s in this spot unless they figure you for a maniac or on tilt. Typical, typical cold-call for Absolute players, but I see this play on a lot of other sites as well.

SB is passive, calling down here is just terrible IMO, though understandable from fish-perspective.

Hero loses here, but I like the way you played the hand, and the fact that you bet the Turn in a tough spot is also good, but this play is not indicative of chip-spewing. You have some good reads on these two which you should use when you next meet. One of things you have to get used to is cold-calling, it usually means very little apart from the fact that they were going to play the hand for one bet anyway, or it is a hand you would play for one bet.

Think about this hand, then think about how much value you will get from these chooks by being aggressive pre-flop. Post-flop play needs more judgement, and reads, but PF is just easy against these players.