The AQ test yet again

[onegymrat]

9/18 Commerce, full. Action game. UTG (extremely aggressive player) raises, MP calls, LP (unknown) calls, I call on the button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. BB calls for donation. Five to the flop.

FLOP: A /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG bets, MP calls, LP calls, I raise. BB folds. All others call. Four to the turn.

TURN: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to LP who bets. I call. UTG check-raises. MP folds. LP calls. I call. Three to the river.

RIVER: not a queen

UTG bets. LP calls. I fold.

[vector2]

WTF...you call the check-raise and then you fold the river? If you're going to fold the river, you might as well not even call the cr to begin with.

You say UTG is extremely aggressive but you don't say how tight or loose he was. If he is a LAG, he could have any ace and still play it exactly the same. LP has played the entire hand passively so it's hard to put him on AK or AJ. A-8, A-4, and A-J are all possibilities for UTG but there's really no way you can easily fold AQ in an action game like this. I think you should've raised LP's bet on the turn - if UTG three-bets you and LP cold-calls, you're probably beat and can lay down on the river unless you improve. If UTG and LP just call your turn raise, you've probably earned yourself a free showdown. Either way would've been better than the way you played it.

[onegymrat]

Hi Vector,

You make good points. The reason I left out whether UTG was tight or loose is to solicit opinions just like yours. I've played with him briefly only once before, and found him to be only extremely aggressive. He likes to run over the table depending on mood. He could go on a streak playing 10 hands in a row, or tighten up to my standards folding 10 hands in a row. Hard to put him on anything.

[Klepton]

I play the commerce 9-18 everytime I go (about once a week) and I know the type of player you are talking about. This player will raise any ace, so it may be likely that he had flopped two pair.

However there are many instances where he is just trying to do a mega move and steal the pot, then after he shows down nothing he'll respond with "can't bluff this table" or something ridiculous.

I believe if you were to call the turn you have to call the river. There are many players at commerce who will call the whole way with a bad ace, so I hope you didn't fold because the LP called.

[mike l.]

preflop is nasty. that's a reraise. punish those cold calling freaks and punish aggro utg for getting aggro out of position.

turn: reraise. you have the best hand. you have a pair of aces with the second best kicker. reraise.

river: call. dont fold. the pot is big. if they have you beat then oh well that's just the way it is. do not fold big pots against aggressive and usually random bad 9-18 players at commerce.

and play 15-30.

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
and play 15-30.

[/ QUOTE ]
Almost there, Mike, almost there. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[El Dukie]

Don't cold-call two bets preflop. Reraise or fold. Flop is okay, but raise the turn when LP bets into you; put the pressure on the UTG player and MP to call two BB cold. (If UTG 3-bets, then you can get away from the hand on the river if you don't improve.) As others have noted, in a big pot, closing the action, you have to make the overcall on the river. You're getting 17-1.

[rory]

The preflop play and lack of a turn raise and river fold have been mentioned already, so I just thought I would throw this out:

A lot of people just classify someone as LAG or not-- but there are players who are LAGs preflop and become passive postflop. Or vice versa.

If your UTG is a true LAG on all streets, then raising the flop is good because the LAG will hopefully 3 bet and hopefully knock out some of the people in between.

But if he is one of those LAGs that slow down postflop, then just calling is right on the flop. The reason is that you are not going to knock anybody out by raising the flop, and you screw up your position relative to the likely-bettor for the turn, because you become the likely bettor due to your flop raise. The downside of this play is you miss a guaranteed 1.5 BB in the pot with likely the best hand by raising the flop, but I think losing the positional advantage relative to the likely-bettor makes the risk worth it. Plus you may actually wind up doing better by waiting until the turn to raise if the turn goes bet-call-call and you raise and your hand holds up.

I make this play a lot in multiway pots where there are several people between me and the likely bettor. If the turn goes bet-call-call, I get to raise with likely the best hand. If the turn goes bet call raise, I get to fold when I am likely beat. Raising the flop strips me of these options on the turn.

[onegymrat]

With respect to Feeney, I did not pass the AQ test. The UTG player was very aggressive, but not a bad player by any means. He just likes to muscle people out and will play very aggressive both pf and post. That put a strain on my pf decision, where 3-betting is an invitation for him to cap, while my AQo was just too juicy to fold on the button with this crew.

I wanted him to 3-bet my raise on the flop to get the sandwiched players out, but he changed gears and only called. This fooled me good, making me think I had the only big ace. The defining moment was when LP bet the turn, which I put him on exactly J-8s (two pair). When UTG check-raised, I see that he was trying to get the middle players out if I bet. I put UTG on AK or JJ. I was confident I was running third best, therefore, it was an easy fold for me on the river.

UTG showed AKo.
LP showed AJo for the turned two pair and takes the pot.

Thank you for all the replies.

[Klepton]

I played the 15-30 last weekend. The whole table was full of 20-40 or 30-60 players waiting to move up. After 2 hours I decided being up exactly 2 BB was enough to move back down to the 9-18 where on average 7 people saw the flop.

Is this the normal 15-30 mike or does it get better?

[Michael Davis]

In fairness to onegymrat, he witnessed me make one of the worst preflop folds in the history of the world a few weeks ago. At least he called with this AQ.

-Michael

[sublime]

At least he called with this AQ

i like folding much better

[Klepton]

That just goes to show you how passive commerce players get after getting check-raised. Any decent player would have re-raised, making your laydown a lot easier.

[sublime]

That just goes to show you how passive commerce players get after getting check-raised. Any decent player would have re-raised, making your laydown a lot easier.

i was talking about preflop

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
At least he called with this AQ

i like folding much better

[/ QUOTE ]

folding against an "extremely aggressive" player is stupid

[sublime]

folding against an aggressive player is stupid

i am an aggressive player. if you called/3-bet here with AQo against my UTG raise i would say thats stupid. also the player has been described as good, why do you want to be in a pot with a good aggressive player who raised UTG?

[andyfox]

There are often a half a dozen 9-18 games going and only one (if that) 15-30 going at Commerce.

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
also the player has been described as good, why do you want to be in a pot with a good aggressive player who raised UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]
I distinctly described him as "not a bad player by any means", which I feel is very accurate mainly because he plays well postflop and can sense when he is beat. He is too loose, however, when it comes to open-raising, and I felt that I may have a better hand preflop.

If I did not have players in between us, I would have 3-bet. If I did in fact 3-bet preflop, he would have undoubtedly capped, creating a much bigger pot when I wanted it headsup.

[onegymrat]

LP should have 3-bet that turn and saved me $18. He turned out to be a loose-passive who had the deck hitting him hard.

[sublime]

He is too loose, however, when it comes to open-raising, and I felt that I may have a better hand preflop.

so is he loose raising UTG? how aboout these standards, or should i add a few more hands?

AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AJo, KQo

your a slight dog in this situation. probably about dead even given your position advantage

If I did not have players in between us, I would have 3-bet

?

[TheArtist]

3 bet preflop
raise the turn

Since you only call the turn, and got check raise by UTG, fold. UTG has JJ most of the time here.

But since u call the check raise, call the river

TheArtist