Help With Maniacs

[Dave H.]

I follow the SSH advice which states that one should seldom cold call two bets. How does one play against a maniac when having to cold call occurs so often that it would be difficult to play anything??

[SheridanCat]

If you're acting after the maniac and no one has raised, you raise to isolate with hands you think stand a chance. You fold the junk. If there's a lot of cold-calling going on, you can cold-call with hands that like multiway action, but be prepare to dump them postflop if it doesn't look good.

Against a maniac you can't isolate you need to tighten up, I think. If you can isolate, you can play looser. My regular home game has a couple semi-maniacs, and that's the way they get played by the more aware players.

Regards,

T

[KenProspero]

If you have a few maniacs in your game, and you only play premium hands, the following is the most likely outcome, if you play well:

1. You play very few hands
2. You get lots of action whenever you do hit a hand and
3. You win a lot of money in the long run.

Here's the downside.

1. Some people get bored folding hand after hand and don't enjoy the game. At small stakes, there's something to be said for not playing if you're not having fun.

2. If the maniacs figure out what you're doing, they may give you too much respect, and no action when you bet. If this occurs, I think you have two choices. (a) Start bluffing and stealing pots or (b) find another table. (a) requires some pretty good table reads, so unless you're sure of your ability, go with (b)

Fortunately, at many low stakes tables, the maniacs are also oblivious.

3. Maniacs sometimes really get cards, so expect to see some variance, i.e., the nights you only play premium hands, and get beat anyway. These nights WILL happen.

[MycroftX]

Amen on #3!!

it all comes down to this, mostly you will take their money.
But when they get that miracle card, when they were way way way behind, it stinks, and they luckily take your money. Even worse is when some other dink at the table says "NH man" to that lucky lil bum, as if he was playing well. But remember this,
in the long you love them lil' bastards. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AngryCola]

SheridanCat's advice is spot on. I have nothing to add, because he covered it pretty well. You will be in good shape, if you stick to his advice. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[SheridanCat]

Once item on variance vs. a maniac. The one real maniac I play regularly against can go through $1500 swings in a single 4 hour session (10/20 w/half-kill) - usually they are downward swings but they are sometimes upward swings. That money comes from and goes to somewhere - namely, you (and the other players). Hold onto your hat.

Regards,

T

[Dave H.]

Angry...did you ever read my last post (response to yours) in the Confusion about odds thread? Sent you a PM regarding that as well. Didn't want you to miss it.

Dave H.

[AngryCola]

Hi Dave,

You must have not sent the PM to the right user, because I don't have it. I get everyone elses PMs, btw. I'll look at the thread, but I've over explained this issue so much, and some people still don't get it. I feel like I'm just wasting my time. If I feel like there is something I can add, I will do so. You do understand the fundamental aspect of effective odds, so figuring out the finer aspects shouldn't be as difficult as it was before. I'm not going to post much more about this issue, because the material and math are out there, and if people still can't understand it, I'm sorry. I've done all I could. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Heh. Good luck. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

EDIT- I just read the last post you made on that thread, and I had read it before. I thought you were just making some good points, which showed that you understood this issue much better now than you did 3 days ago. I couldn't really think of anything to add. You would have to communicate with me through PMs if you wanted to know how high I play, where I play, etc.

[MycroftX]

I just wanna say your Avatar rocks Cola.

k, later nader

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna say your Avatar rocks Cola.

k, later nader

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thank you! You would be surprised how often I hear that. I get PMs about it all the time. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dave H.]

OK...rather than asking you to go search for it, here it is...

I almost finished my response and my computer crashed! Grrr!

Point 1: Yes, I remember what Lorinda said very well. At the time, I was exasperated and envious at the same time. Now that I understand, I will write on the board 1,000 times...
It depends...
It depends...
It depends...
...

Point 2: I think the reason that I (and others) could have a mental block about this may have something to do with how tough it might be to use effective odds depending on the level you play at. I am a beginner and play at microlimits where normally many players see the flop (and turn for that matter). Trying to estimate given that many players seems a daunting task indeed and, even if you understand the concept, it's very likely that you think "Right, I'm sure I'll be able to do THAT!" and you just sort of toss the idea aside. I can imagine that this would be much more useful at higher levels where you presumably would have fewer players seeing the flop and turn. Just a thought.

Point 3: I have no idea what level you play at, but my guess is that it will take me a while to get there. If I ever do, I hope to be your opponent and wind up in a showdown with you. If and when I do, win or lose, I'm going straight to the chatbox and I'm going to type: "Now why on earth did you play those cards? Your effective odds SUCKED"...

Hey, man, thanks for your persistence; I finally got it!

[bernie]

The trick to these games isn't so much what the maniac is raising with, it's how the other players are reacting to it. That's the spot where you can adjust your starting hands.

b

[ZeeBee]

There's some nice stuff on playing a Maniac in "Inside the Poker Mind" by Feeney.

This is going to sound really wimpy, but for me the best way to handle maniacs (especially if there's more than 1 at the table) is to avoid them. They may give you their money in the long run, but it will probably hurt on the way (and they may give it -and yours - to someone else first). There are easier pickings elsewhere.

ZB

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This is going to sound really wimpy, but for me the best way to handle maniacs (especially if there's more than 1 at the table) is to avoid them. They may give you their money in the long run, but it will probably hurt on the way (and they may give it -and yours - to someone else first). There are easier pickings elsewhere

[/ QUOTE ]

When you do learn how to play these tables, they will be some of the easiest tables to play. Everything actually plays pretty easy on them. Preflop hand selection and postflop play is scaled way down. It's just the aggravation of getting beat by crap in a huge pot that's hard getting used to.

I'd seek out lower limit (than you play) maniac games and try 'em out. (play money games, if you can stand how slow they go, also are good for learning these types of games) Games like this tend to play the same across the limits. Learn them cheaply. They can make for some monster sessions.

I used to hate them too. But now i don't mind them at all.

b

[BruinEric]

I found this thread and I'm replying in part to keep it alive and get additional thoughts from more experienced players.

Last night I was in a .5/1 PP game with TWO maniacs who saw approx 75% of the flops and each raised PF 40 to 50%. Several PF pots were RR or capped, but most only had one raise. Only 2 to 5 saw the flop, so it wasn't a table gone completely bonkers.

Aside from the obvious PF raising hands, at least one of these Maniacs was PF raising with absolutely nothing, the other with maybe a Q, K or one A.

So since around half of the total hands at the table were raised, I found myself several folding hands with which I would ordinarily limp based on my PF starting hands list.

Therefore the maniacs had me playing much tighter. Is this the correct play in such a situation?

Add those maniacs to one guy who sees 80% flops and is passive and you have a fun table. The 80% flop guy called down the maniacs several times with killer made drawing hands.

[derick]

I'm not an expert so I'd appreciate feedback on this reply from someone who knows.

First consider if you can handle the variance. It feels like I win/lose about 4x as much when I play maniacs like the ones in your post. Pots are going to be huge and there will be lots and lots of suckouts. I've had my biggest losses playing these types of players.

Starting Hands:

You will find that you often don't get odds with you're drawing hands because you get raised a lot.

Play tighter with drawing hands. For example you won't get your odds to flop a set with 22 UTG because you'll have to pay 2 SB or more 75% of the time to see the flop. So your odds require roughly 8.5 * 1.75 in the pot to flop a set rather than 8.5 * 1.

On the other hand high card trouble hands like AJ, AT, KJ, KQ, KT go up in value. If the maniac raises you - Pop him back with your AJ, AT, KQ, KJ if he's raising 50% of the time.

I want to get heads up with the maniac when I have better cards than him.

Re-raise and Cap to isolate the maniac with your JJ, TT, 99, AQs, AJs, KQs, KJs.

Does this sound right?

derick

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

So since around half of the total hands at the table were raised, I found myself several folding hands with which I would ordinarily limp based on my PF starting hands list.

Therefore the maniacs had me playing much tighter. Is this the correct play in such a situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is such that a lot of people are seeing the flop for two bets, you can cold-call with some hands that play well multiway. So, suited aces are playable when you have a lot of players in preflop, even with a raise.

Obviously, you still play large pocket pairs, but they are going to be vulnerable.

Offsuit Broadway cards lose value, so fold those except AK.

I think in these situations you're looking to make flushes, big sets, big two-pair, etc. Top pair with top kicker on a coordinated board is dangerous in these games, especially if there is a lot of action post-flop. You'll be hanging in there and get whipsawed by the maniacs who could have anything at all.

If the table is tight preflop and you can isolate the maniac(s), loosen up. However, generally these small stakes games aren't going to be that tight, so tighten up yourself.

Remember that if you're playing good multi-way hands preflop that don't get helped by the flop, be prepared to dump them. If you chase long-shots with postflop maniacs, you'll get ripped up.

Regards,

T

[SheridanCat]

I think you're right IF, and this is a big old IF, you can isolate the maniac. If you cannot isolate the maniac, KQo is garbage. If you're getting lots of callers, you want to hit nut hands. Hands like KQo or ATo are usually dominated with lots of players already in.

Regards,

T

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're right IF, and this is a big old IF, you can isolate the maniac. If you cannot isolate the maniac, KQo is garbage. If you're getting lots of callers, you want to hit nut hands. Hands like KQo or ATo are usually dominated with lots of players already in.

Regards,

T

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your reply,



No offence intended but I find it interesting that your well reasoned advice is the exact opposite of mine.

I pop the big broadways. I tend to fold the drawing hands like A5s in early position for fear of getting reraised.

I admit my style makes for really big variance since as you correctly observed you must isolate the maniac with raises.

What I wonder is, "Is my plan for raising more with AJo KQo VS a Maniac a good one? i.e. should I stop doing this?" Or is it doomed to failure.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

What I wonder is, "Is my plan for raising more with AJo KQo VS a Maniac a good one? i.e. should I stop doing this?" Or is it doomed to failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is fine, but only if you can isolate the raiser. You will rarely get a chance to do this is loose small stakes games. If the table texture allows it, yes, pop these hands. But understand that if you end up multiway, KQo (for instance) may easily be dominated.

As with almost all the questions asked in poker, "it depends".

Regards,

T