New to NL -- Several basic questions

[KowCiller]

Hello all,

I typically play mid stakes limit hold'em, but I'm trying to learn NL as some of the casinos in town are regularly spreading some juicy NL ring games with really awful play.

I've got some basic strategy questions geared towards NL games such as $100max live games, $25max Party, $50max Party.

1) UTG with KJo, what's your play?
2) UTG with QJs, what's your play?
3) MP with KJo folded to you, what's your play?
4) MP with KJs 2 limpers to you, what's your play?
5) CO or Button with ATs, 3-4 limpers infront of you, what's your play?

I'm trying to get an understanding of some of the default plays (if not folding) these marginal hands in NL.

Additionally, if your answers would change for a higher stakes game, lets say $5-$2 blinds $500max game, please indicate that.

Thanks,
KoW

[edge]

1) fold
2) fold
3) fold
4) limp
5) limp

This is for a low-stakes, weak game. I haven't played in a tough game, but I'd probably fold all of those if I wasn't confident that I could outplay the others.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
1) UTG with KJo, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]
fold, too marginal with not enough info

[ QUOTE ]
2) UTG with QJs, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]
fold, same as above

[ QUOTE ]
3) MP with KJo folded to you, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]
fold, too marginal with not enough players to pay you off if you hit a monster

[ QUOTE ]
4) MP with KJs 2 limpers to you, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]
i'd go ahead and limp, and fold to a strong raise. with 2 limpers plus the blinds, you're getting about the right pot to see a flop with this.

[ QUOTE ]
5) CO or Button with ATs, 3-4 limpers infront of you, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]
same as #4

[phil_ivey_fan]

quick specification....are you talking 6max or the full 10man ring game?

[beta1607]

1. fold
2. fold
3. fold
4. depends on the table, in my opinion raise at a standard low limit table but if nobody respects raises then call/fold preflop
5. Raise dont let the blinds see a free flop so their 72 doesnt get paid off by you when the flop comes A72

I also want to point out the importance of a standard raise when you do raise preflop (something like 3.5 or 4bb) this will disguise your hands and make you a little harder to read.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
5. Raise dont let the blinds see a free flop so their 72 doesnt get paid off by you when the flop comes A72


[/ QUOTE ]

how much money are you planning on putting into the pot with TP and a bad kicker?

[KowCiller]

Full ring, but if you'd like to weigh in on 6-max games, that would be great!

KoW

[KowCiller]

Schwza,

Do you advocate folding AT preflop in this spot? What about KQs. I'm having trouble on grasping the real value of these hands in terms of NL. These are hands that I've described seem to be easily dominated and you're only going to get action when your beat. Having 2nd best hand in NL hurts much more than in a limit game. I'm very afraid of following the starting hands that SSH (limit-based advice) advocates in a NL game.

It seems like to avoid these problems I've described, a person would basically stick to AK, AQ (being careful), pocket pairs, and suited connectors only if there are a few limpers and no raise infront of you.

By following this, would I be leaving too much money on the table?

Thanks,

KoW

[ML4L]

Hey Kow,

Tough to give general rules that have much meaning for NL preflop. But, here's a shot...

[ QUOTE ]

1) UTG with KJo, what's your play?
2) UTG with QJs, what's your play?
3) MP with KJo folded to you, what's your play?
4) MP with KJs 2 limpers to you, what's your play?
5) CO or Button with ATs, 3-4 limpers infront of you, what's your play?


[/ QUOTE ]

1) Fold. That one actually is easy and will be correct 99.9% of the time.

2) I will raise/call/fold here all some non-zero percent of the time, but the raising and calling typically occurs with deeper stacks and image considerations. If you're just learning NL, fold, because you probably can't keep yourself out of trouble postflop yet.

3) Raise if I can steal the blinds (or steal on the flop after being called preflop). Fold otherwise (probably the default play for you).

4) Raise if I can steal the blinds/limps (or steal on the flop after being called preflop). Call otherwise (probably the default play for you).

5) You should call here (there are times when I raise, but again, there are always game-specific considerations). Calling keeps the pot small so you can draw to the nuts for cheap. You also don't want to fold out other suited hands before the flop.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

ML4L

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
By following this, would I be leaving too much money on the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, yeah, there would be pots that you could have won with these hands, but generally they're not going to make you as much money as you're going to lose with them. limp with them at the right spot and take down a huge pot when you hit the nuts. the goal is to win money, not pots.

have you read _small stakes hold'em_ by miller, et al? well worth the money. it's a little geared towards limit, but a lot of the advice is still valid at PL/NL.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
have you read _small stakes hold'em_ by miller, et al? well worth the money. it's a little geared towards limit, but a lot of the advice is still valid at PL/NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying that SSH is "a little geared" toward limit is like saying that the New Testament is "a little geared" toward Jesus... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ML4L

[bunky9590]

1. Fold.
2. Fold.
3. fold.
4. limp
5. limp

[KowCiller]

swolfe,

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post. I have read SSH and have a good understanding of the concepts as they apply to limit games. I'm saying that I am scared to use their starting hand recommendations a in NL game because they are geared towards pushing small edges and getting paid off by people who are entirely too loose and go too far with their hands.

So my question is, if I stick to :

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like to avoid these problems I've described, a person would basically stick to AK, AQ (being careful), pocket pairs, and suited connectors only if there are a few limpers and no raise infront of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would I be leaving too much money on the table by not playing other hands that SSH would advocate? Are the hands I've described in the above quote a good strategy? or am I leaving things out?

Thanks,
KoW

[KowCiller]

ML4L,

Thank you very much. This is precisely what I was looking for in a response. The default plays you've described were basically how I've been playing now.

What do you think of this in terms of starting hand requirements:

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like to avoid these problems I've described, a person would basically stick to AK, AQ (being careful), pocket pairs, and suited connectors only if there are a few limpers and no raise infront of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will I be too easy to peg onto a hand by playing this way?

Thanks,
KoW

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like to avoid these problems I've described, a person would basically stick to AK, AQ (being careful), pocket pairs, and suited connectors only if there are a few limpers and no raise infront of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will I be too easy to peg onto a hand by playing this way?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you'll be fairly predictable to anyone paying close attention. But, for the games that you mentioned, most people probably aren't paying attention. So, I think it's fine to stick to that as your basic strategy while you learn the game. The better you get postflop, the more hands you can play preflop.

You can also play suited aces in LP in unraised (or maybe min-raised) pots. And, of course, if it's folded to you in LP, you can try stealing the blinds with all sorts of stuff, provided that you play carefully postflop.

Good luck.

ML4L

[schwza]

no, i didn't mean to fold ATs on the button/cut-off. i'd happily play A2s in that spot. i was responding to a poster who said to raise so that you don't wind the BB's flopped garbage 2 pair. what i was saying is that you shouldn't be losing very much if all you have is top pair and a 10 kicker.

you're playing ATs mostly for the flush draw, but if you can keep the pot small (much easier to do in position) then you can also make some money when you flop an A or the flop is T-high. flops of TTx and ATx are also good, of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif (like Axx, you don't want to fall in love with a flop of AAx).

[beta1607]

Good point, and I wasn't clear in my original post. Obviously you dont want to play a huge pot with top pair crappy kicker or even TPTK. I may be wrong in this but I believe that the raise does have certain factors that I think make it the correct play. You can steal the blinds/limps with a raise and it also gives you the initative for the rest of the hand with position. If you were in early or middle position this is clearly not a raising hand but given the fact that you have the advantage of being the CO/button you should raise given the added value of your position and the weakness show by the limpers.

[DBowling]

i agree