2+2 = 10

[naphand]

This is a hand between two 2+2 players, which was discussed and thought worthy of some comment from others.

Absolute $2/$4 (6-max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with TT
UTG folds, MP limps, CO folds, Button folds, 2+2 calls, Hero raises, MP calls, 2+2 calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif , 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif , 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
2+2 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, 2+2 raises, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
2+2 bets, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
2+2 bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.5 BB


My feeling on this is that Hero should 3-bet the flop and lead the Turn A, rather than try for a CR (which was the intention). TT is an overpair to the board, but a completed SB could be a lot of hands (X9, X7, A4, 97, 77, 44, poss. T8, 86, 56) and there are a lot of Turn cards that could make a 2nd-best hand (A-J plus a 9 or 7). By 3-betting and leading the Turn I think Hero can safely fold to a raise as this has to be 2-pair or better. This line saves 0.5 BB when behind. A call to the Turn A and I think chances are Hero is ahead and a River bet is unlikely to raised even 2+2 has K9 and a K falls (ditto for Q9 and Q) as Hero could be playing AK/AQ?

Who figures 3-bet the flop? Should Hero go for the CR here? Does Hero have odds to call down this hand (i.e. hope to see K9/Q9/J9/T9) when bet into again on the Turn A? What is your read of 2+2's hand?

[Mammux]

Something is wrong in your hand history. You are probably BB, not SB, and 2+2 is SB?

-Magnus

[Scotch78]

With the low flop it's very likely hero would raise with two overcards, so I'd bet-3-bet (or maybe stop-n-go) from the SB with two pair and up rather than check-raise. Combined with the fact that the hero is just as afraid of overcards, I'd 3-bet the flop. With only one limper, especially if he was loose at all, A9 is likely a raise for the SB, and possibly 77, too. 97 seems too loose with one limper, even suited, so the only hand I'm worried about on the flop or turn is 44.

Scott

[naphand]

Yes you are right. Hero is BB in this hand, 2+2 is SB.

Done by hand... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[naphand]

This hand has some similarities to this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1276522&Main=1272029#Post 1276522) thread, and it would be nice to talk about the differences. Too many posts and not enough discussion at the moment (the link given above being an exception).

The SSHE advice of waiting to the Turn with TT I think is less correct, it is HU and the board is less co-ordinated. And the question begs, what is a scare card?

[runa]

I think this is very different from the previous example. It is HU, your opponent is a TAG who hasn't rasied PF which could mean all kinds of hands. JT overs with str8 possibilities, K9s, Q9s, J9s, low PP, so its very difficult to figure out what a scare card is. I would still be likely to believe the hero is ahead on the flop. CR probably won't work as CO has shown no aggression and may not bet, and you don't want anyone to get a free ride off this flop when you have the better hand. I prefer 3-betting the CR'er here on the flop and probably lead the turn if he calls. However, your opponent might cap here and then lead the turn. Too many hypothetical situations here.

The play itself is different too, because in the other example the hero is on the button and can close the action, not to mention there is already some action unfolding before him, so there he can call and then wait and see how things develop on the turn. Here you only have 3 people and the need to push that edge on the turn isn't nearly as important as betting against a known TAG when you're fairly sure you're hand is best.

[scotnt73]

actually im hero and nap is 2+2 so i did raise preflop with 1010

[naphand]

boo...now you gave the game away

and not only did I muck up the SB/BB in the post, but of course, BB cannot CR the Turn, doh! read CR for raise as far as Hero is concerned.

what I was trying to say was, should Hero 3-bet the flop or raise the Turn against a TAG, who can be relied upon to bet again? there are a lot of cards that could make life difficult for Hero.

was 2+2 correct to CR the flop? bet/3-bet looks a good line against overcards, but not a pocket overpair, a CR actually gets as much info as 3-bet/cap but with less cost, countered by only getting in only 2 bets with the CR against overcards. can we be sure that Hero raises the flop with overcards? in which case CR looks better with a 9.

[runa]

Foolish nap, I should've suspected you were up to something when I read the subject...

[runa]

2+2'er: I think I prefer just leading out on the flop here. You actually don't mind if the Hero raises here, forcing out SB and getting it HU, with plans of using an SNG. If you are up against overs you might just get called here but you don't mind a raise. A CR seems more useful if you're building up a strong draw here or have a strong made hand and want SB to stick around for more as he is likely to call 1, and then when you CR, then call another absent a 3-bet.

Hero: I usually 3-bet to regain initiative, but calling here with plans of raising the turn seems ok in this spot because you are in position, so if checked to again you can bet and deny the free card.

[naphand]

Actually the clue was even more obvious - in all my other posts I am always "Naphand", never "Hero".

[naphand]

Obviously there are options, perhaps there really is not much difference in any.

RESULT

2+2 shows A9o for the Turned 2-pair suck.

A lot of these chooks (CO) with call with any A, so this coupled with the distinct possibility Hero has a big Ace, makes we want to CR the field with each of them facing 3 outers. Also CO chook will often call a raggy flop to see the Turn with all sorts of garbage, so again I want to let him pay for this. If Hero has an overpair I would expect to see a 3-bet quite a lot of the time. Bet/3-bet also looks valid, though I had to consider that Hero knew who I was and might be cautious about raising with overcards, fearing reverse domination. I'm not concerned about CO at all, perhaps I should be, but in these games they often pay 2 bets on the flop and fold the Turn with nothing, or call down with any bit of the board, adding plenty of equity to the pot. Also, I figured CR would help to discourage any auto-betting with overs on raggy boards.

The Turn I paused a moment to consider CR again, and Hero says he would hve certainly bet if I had checked. I figured he would raise me here with a big Ace and I get to 3-bet on the expensive street. With hindsight, bet the flop and 3-bet, or bet the flop, CR the Turn looks a better line. We have to make a best-guess at the time.