Did my Opponent's Weird and Wonderful Bet Save his Stack?

[DavidC]

... say that three times fast. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This was a little bit of a frustrating hand for me. I was quite happy to hit my straight -- the nuts, but quite unhappy to have my opponent fold.

Was it his turn bet that saved his stack here?

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Paradise NL $2 (0.01/0.02 blinds): 7 handed

Stacks:
SB: ($1.80 in chips)
BB: ($3.71 in chips)
UTG: ($3.22 in chips)
MP: ($14.22 in chips)
MP2: ($1.49 in chips)
HERO in CO: ($2.31 in chips)
button: ($1.94 in chips)

Dealt to hero in the co: Jc Th

pf: two folds, 3 calls, sb completes, bb checks.

*** FLOP *** : [ 9c 8c 3s ]
blinds check, mp bets .08, hero raises to .20, button and blinds fold, mp calls.

*** TURN *** : [ 9c 8c 3s ] [ Ad ]
mp bets .08, hero calls.

*** RIVER *** : [ 9c 8c 3s Ad ] [ Qs ]
mp bets .08, hero raises to .45, mp folds.

-------------

Nice fold on his behalf, I guess. What could he have had to bet that way?

--Dave.

[Scorpion]

I would guess 10 9 or 9 7. I think he was trying a feeler bet to scare you with the A.

[soah]

Your raise on the flop is really bad. The bettor certainly won't fold to that raise, you increase the chance of driving out all of the other players who could pad the pot for you, but you don't drive out a bad player with a flush draw. Were you hoping to get a free card on the turn? If so... it didn't work. All you did was charge yourself more to draw.

He probably just had a pair of nines and didn't like the two overcards.

[DavidC]

Cool. Thanks.

His holding makes sense, for sure.

One thing though... I don't know if I like his feeler bets: they were a little small. The only thing that they would tell him is that I didn't have an ace/queen. Is this kind of bet something that is done to prevent me trying to bluff him?

[DavidC]

It turned out that way.

I didn't feel too bad about the draw, given the stack sizes, and I didn't feel too bad about the bet, given the pot size. I really did want to get that free card, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was also in a position where if I took the free card I could bluff at the flush, though I didn't consider that originally.

Would more people in taht pot have made the turn less likely for me to get a free card?

If that's the case, then should I have folded the flop or called?

... I still have a lot to learn!

[DBowling]

He had an overpair, TT or JJ, most likely TT. Sometimes i see this with flush draws too, though. He continues through the river, even when he misses his draw, hoping you too missed your draw, and prevents you from bluffing him.

[soah]

I thought about this hand a little more and have some different thoughts. The raise may be ok if you think it's likely that the players behind you will fold hands like AJ, but would tag along if you just called. This increases your chances of winning the hand if you catch a pair while also giving you the chance to maybe take a free card on the turn.

Overall though I just think this is an ugly hand. JTo is normally a fold preflop. On the flop there's a reasonable chance someone has a flush draw so many of your outs are tainted. You have poor position relative to the bettor. You don't have any idea what the players behind you hold or what they are going to do, and if you hit your draw you won't be in a position to extract the maximum for them (by trapping them for one bet before raising). If you hit your straight with one of the flush cards then you don't know where you're at. You'll hate to see a fourth flush card on the river so checking is bad, but betting into someone that made their flush is bad too.

So overall this hand is just yucky IMO.

[DavidC]

I'm not sure what kinds of hands I think they'll fold. I'm not 100% comfortable with hitting one of my overcards, as it could give someone the straight.

If the board didn't have a flush draw on it my play here would have been much more sound.

The small bet by my opponent on the turn may have been an opportunity to end it without a fight (I could have come over the top at him).

I feel bad about folding a hand that I can limp with against a crowd. Don't get me wrong, it may be good to fold it, but other than the fact that I may get top pair with mid kicker, or a straight without a flush, I'm not sure...

See, those are hands where you can lose your stack if you're not careful (though tpmk shouldn't). However, if you ought to be able to mix it up a little. Even as I hit the call button I chided myself for it, but then I just played the flop based on my hand and position.

I raised to hopefully get the free card and clear the field. It was an intimidating raise, because I was putting two bets in front of everyone (I was using the bettor as a weapon here).

Unfortunately, I was giving the bettor a chance to thrash me too if he had a good hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Something kinda neat is that if I miss my flush and hit my straight, I can probably bluff. I'm not good at doing that yet, but I know that it's possible.

OOC, do you know of any books that are really good for NLHE? I've read Ciaffone and Reuben's book, but that's it.

Another guy on here recommended TOP (good idea!) and HPFAP... I'm not so sure about HPFAP, because I've read it and it's no where near as good as PLNL Poker (first book) when it comes to NLHE.

The straight vs. flush situation that you're talking about is something that shows me that you have a whole whack of experience that I don't have... in limit it's nice and easy... you just call, or raise then call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

No limit is a completely different animal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
The straight vs. flush situation that you're talking about is something that shows me that you have a whole whack of experience that I don't have... in limit it's nice and easy... you just call, or raise then call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

No limit is a completely different animal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny you say that because as I wrote my post I couldn't stop thinking about how everything I wrote sounded exactly like the stuff I've been reading in SSE. Except that in limit I'd like my position on the turn if I hit my straight in order to confront the flush draws with 2 bets.

[creedofhubris]

Preflop, the call is fine; you've got position and several callers, the keys to calling with JTo.

On the flop... I think I just call. You have two overcards and an open-end straight draw, which is a nice hand, but you're not going to get anybody with any piece of that flop to fold, I don't think. The call is marginal; you really want at least one more caller before you chase even a hand as good as yours.

Given what you did, his little bet on the turn looks to me like a blocking bet, intended to keep you from betting big. I will often do that with a flush draw, so that I'm not charged a pot-sized bet to keep chasin'. I think weaker players tend to do it with pair-type hands to "keep people honest". However, his river fold to me suggests that he's missed his draw and thinks you missed too. Weaker players also do it with things like two pair that they just hit, in order to see if you'll raise, because they think they're good, who knows why.

[soah]

When I wrote SSE in my last post that of course was supposed to say SSHE, just in case anyone was confused...