Should I have folded to the re-raise?

[DavidC]

Sorry about the game selection: I'm going to move up soon!

Also, I should probably have folded this pf. Please comment on the pf but please don't dwell on it.

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Paradise NL $2 (0.01/0.02): 7 handed.

Stacks:
SB: ($5.93 in chips)
BB: ($0.98 in chips)
UTG: ($1.95 in chips)
MP: ($2.03 in chips)
MP2: ($1.84 in chips)
CO: ($2.55 in chips)
BUTTON (hero): ($3.28 in chips)

Hero dealt: JcTs

pf: utg raises to .08, fold, two calls, hero calls, blinds fold.

*** FLOP *** : [ Jd 5h 7c ]

utg checks, mp2 checks, co bets .30, hero raises to .60, two folds, co raises to .90. Hero calls.

*** TURN *** : [ Jd 5h 7c ] [ 5c ]

both check.

*** RIVER *** : [ Jd 5h 7c 5c ] [ 8s ]

co bets .90, hero folds.

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He didn't show his hand, but I feel that I was probably outkicked here. I think it's more likely that he was trying to checkraise me on the turn or see how I liked the 5, rather than waiting for his draw to hit the river.

I think that my hand was way too weak to raise the flop, and definitely too weak to call the re-raise without a draw.

Any comments?

--Dave.

[Scorpion]

Fold preflop. None of these problems come up if you fold. Preflop you are behind a ton of hands someone will raise. Postflop you are behind AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AJ, KJ, and QJ, very rarely but possible 77. Calling that raise preflop with your hand only leads to trouble.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. None of these problems come up if you fold. Preflop you are behind a ton of hands someone will raise. Postflop you are behind AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AJ, KJ, and QJ, very rarely but possible 77. Calling that raise preflop with your hand only leads to trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your commentary.

kk, qq, and jj seem very rare, given the pre-flop action (they likely would have re-raised, right?), unless it's in the hands of the utg raiser.

Given the flop check by UTG, I would expect that UTG didn't have any of those, so it would have been REALLY rare that one of these hands would have been in contention.

AJ, QJ, KJ, seem quite likely here, 77 less so, as you said, and my show of weakness on the flop and turn would embolden any of those hands to strike on the river.

I agree that I probably should have folded pf, and I wanted to hear people tell me that I should do that, for sure. However, I asked that they didn't dwell on it...

So, let's say Warren Buffett discovered that people play poker, and then he deposited .08 into my paradise account, and asked me to call the bet pf, and I did...

At what point should I have released the hand, seeing that flop? Should I have folded instantly to the bet, folded to the re-raise, bet on the turn, or folded on the river, as I did?

(At each decision making point, one should reflect on the history of the hand to determine what are likely opponent holdings, view his own holding, and make a decision. They shouldn't dwell on mistakes made previously in the hand... I'm very tempted to say that to do so would be an amateur mistake.)

--Dave.

[Scorpion]

I would have folded to the reraise on the flop. It screams overpair, or TPTK. Since you called you could have tried to represent the 5 fire a bet and fold to a raise or if called fold to a river bet.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded to the reraise on the flop. It screams overpair, or TPTK. Since you called you could have tried to represent the 5 fire a bet and fold to a raise or if called fold to a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about repping the 5, but I'd have been really embarassed if I got called... It would be representing a really far-fetched hand. I decided that it wasn't worth the risk.

I agree that I should have folded to the re-raise, and folding to a river bet or turn raise had I bluffed is pretty straight-forward.

I'm sorry about the "...an amateur mistake." comment -- I get a little frustrated when I point out my own mistake and have that mistake be the highlight of the responses -- you're not the first person to do this...

(and I do think folding pf would have been grand here!)

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
It screams overpair, or TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing... He bet, I minraised, and he min-re-raised me back.

Is this something that would indicate one of those hands or something more than that (like a set)?

It's pretty scary, getting min-re-raised! I figure tptk would have likely tried harder to protect the hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DBowling]

I think you fold this hand preflop because it gets you into situations like this.
But once youre here, raising the flop is fine, if you think hes bluffing with a worse hand. But once he reraises you, you are likely beat. Its tough to let it go when theres so much money in the pot and only .30 to call. But he doesnt have enough money behind to give you any kind of implied odds, should you improve on the turn. As it played out, he gave you the turn and river, and you are still unimproved. Easy fold on the river.
So:
fold preflop
fold to reraise
fold to river /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BobboFitos]

People are missing the fact that Hero has 164 bets in front of him; the 1cent/2cent is deep stacked. I see very little wrong PF if hero is able to play the flop well...

Here's what I would've done: It's 7 handed and you have the button, he opens for 4bbs, and there are 2 calls to the Hero. I may or may not call, but I really dont think the call was the street misplayed.

On the flop, 4 players with a pot of 35 cents. J 7 5 rainbow. Drawless. PFR bets 6/7 the pot - folded to hero.

Why min raise? What are you trying to accomplish? If PFR will dump AK/AQ to the min raise, you dont need a pair to do it. If he has something better you're wasting 60cents - the hand become easier by just calling the flop. "Raising for information" is way too costly in this sense, as you're NOT raising for value OR bluffing. So raising is wrong. Plus, although you didn't hit your straight, (or draw/trips/etc) you did pair up, so it's a bit weak to fold. (Although not wrong) So it seems everything points to calling.

Turn pot (just calling) 95 cents.

When the 5 lands, you either do have the best hand and he has ~6 (or more if he picked up a club draw with something like AQ /images/graemlins/club.gif) or you are drawing to 2 outs now. (If he has QQ KK AA your two pair would get counterfeited) So what do to here? If he bets again it's a clear fold unless he gets overaggro with Ace high, in which case it's still probably a fold as it's too costly to determine which is the case.

If he checks, I like betting ~1/2 the pot for two reasons:
1. If he somehow checkraises you (highly unlikely, what leads him to believe you would bet here?) you are beaten to 2 outs, easy fold. And you would have saved money vs your line of min raise/call min raise. So it loses you less.
2. If you're called you can get a free showdown on river with no messy bluffing.

Problem with a check behind is it may induce a bluff you dont want to call with TPWK.
But if you do check you probably want to call his river bet unless he rarely bluffs.