"Playing" a friend.

[iash]

Just got back from a 3 day Vegas stint, was awesome..truly did nothing but hold 'em & the occasional club. I'd like some opinions on the following:

2/4 no limit game at Mandalay Bay. Playing at a full table with a good friend & a bunch of strangers. One hand, I had pocket Aces. My friend is in early position with pocket Queens. He raises, I re-raise, he calls. Flop is rags, he raises, I re-raise, he calls. The final two steets I simply call his bets. The pot ends up being 200-300 dollars, and I take it down. (This is a fairly large amount of money for my friend.)

Similar situations occured with this friend of mine throughout the next few hours. It just so happens that I was on the winning end of these hands. I would say I played them aggresively, as I would have played them against anyone else.

At one point in the session, a few players criticized me for playing so cut-throat vs. a friend. I have mixed feelings on this.

From one perspective, I'm there to play cards and i'm not going to let up, no matter who i'm playing. And what if I did ease up, say checking or calling when I normally would have bet or raised, and then I get outdrawn? Then I'd be extremely pissed off.

Anyway, a little later on, I ended up feeling bad, and folding pocket Jacks to a pre-flop raise of his. It turns out I would have flopped a boat, and won a $500 pot which my friend ended up losing anyway.

On the flip side, our friendship is worth more to me than a few pots or getting beat or outdrawn or whatever.

In the future, is it ok to let up on friends? What if it comes down to us heads up, can I tell him my hand? Is this ethical? Is this frowned upon? Just curious as to what others would do, or have done.

Hrm, looking back on this post, it reads more like a Dear Abby letter than a 2+2 post, but any advice would be appreciated anyway /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks in advance for any input.

iash

iash

[jdl22]

Poker is a strictly competitive game. If you soft play him then you are being unethical. If you don't want to take his money play at different tables.

It might be better if you played limit with your friends. That way there is less chance that you will lose a large chunk of money to each other.

[TiK]

If you have any reservations about playing against (taking money from) friends, you should just not sit at the same table...

-Tik

[UltimateDickory]

I have one friend that consistently reprimanded me for raising him when he bets in to me. I've also trapped him on numerous occasions. Sometimes it was due to me having a very good read on him as a player. It is completely unfair to the other players at the table for me to play him soft. It took a few sessions in AC for him to understand this. I basically let him know that he should play me the same whether it is at a home game on in a B&M. If he feels I have an unfair advantage over him, he should not sit at my table. Everytime I sit at the table it is a learning experience and I would hope he thinks the same way. It is not really fair that your friend happened to be in that seat. Had a stranger been in that seat, you would have been very happy with the profit you earned from that seat/player. This was the same type of situation where my bankroll was always significantly larger than his. Fortunately I've moved up in limits and this hasn't been a problem lately.

[PoorLawyer]

take your boat and then buy him a drink and a lap dance later to make up for the other beats.

[Sully]

I've always felt that you should play a friend just like anyone else, until that hand is down to just the two of you, in which case a little softplay never hurt anyone.

On a side note, a lot of people don't understand that when I raise you, it's not a personal attack against you. In more cases, it's an attack against those people yet to act. It's me saying that if you want to get in here, you'd better know what you're doing.

When it gets heads up....well then, that's a different story.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, a little later on, I ended up feeling bad, and folding pocket Jacks to a pre-flop raise of his. It turns out I would have flopped a boat, and won a $500 pot which my friend ended up losing anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you learned your (very expensive) lesson.

[bernie]

If i have friends who don't like to be played hard, i tell them they shouldn't play. It's BS when friends softplay each other. It's too bad there really isn't anything one can do about it.

[ QUOTE ]
In the future, is it ok to let up on friends? What if it comes down to us heads up, can I tell him my hand? Is this ethical? Is this frowned upon? Just curious as to what others would do, or have done

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you like to be at a table where players softplay except when you're in the pot? Put yourself in others shoes. This isn't a team game.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side, our friendship is worth more to me than a few pots or getting beat or outdrawn or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pretty fragile friendship if it's predicated on not being bet into. Don't you think it's kind of pathetic?

[ QUOTE ]
At one point in the session, a few players criticized me for playing so cut-throat vs. a friend

[/ QUOTE ]

boo hoo. Welcome to poker. Guess what? It's a cutthroat game.

Not getting over this hurdle, and a simple one at that, you may not be cut out to play the game seriously. Serious players don't even give this issue a 2nd thought.

To paraphrase a poster a ways back,

"It's not personal, it's poker."

b

[scott1]

Talk to your friend when it looks like you're gonna sit down at a table together and agree on how you are going to play it. Just tell him - I'm gonna play my regular style against you. Friends playing soft against each other is frustrating for the rest of the table.

Buy some drinks or dinner after you leave the table to keep things friendly.

[iash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, a little later on, I ended up feeling bad, and folding pocket Jacks to a pre-flop raise of his. It turns out I would have flopped a boat, and won a $500 pot which my friend ended up losing anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you learned your (very expensive) lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this made me realize I just have to play my hands, my style, and if he gets in the way, so be it.

When I flopped the boat I quietly got up from the table & walked around the casino for about 10 minutes. I was steaming.

[iash]

[ QUOTE ]
How would you like to be at a table where players softplay except when you're in the pot? Put yourself in others shoes. This isn't a team game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. This would annoy me if others were doing it. Every man for himself.

[ QUOTE ]
At one point in the session, a few players criticized me for playing so cut-throat vs. a friend

[/ QUOTE ]

boo hoo. Welcome to poker. Guess what? It's a cutthroat game.

Not getting over this hurdle, and a simple one at that, you may not be cut out to play the game seriously. Serious players don't even give this issue a 2nd thought.



[/ QUOTE ]

I honesly never gave my play a second thought until people starting ragging on me.

Thanks for your um brutal honesty.

iash

[jar]

It's a common cliche, but has some merit: If you wouldn't check raise your grandmother when she's playing for her medicine money, you don't belong at the same table.

[Swampy]

I'm in a home game that is going into its 8th year, always with the same guys, and I can tell you that none of us lets friendship get in the way of trying to take every chip that's offered. When a couple of these guys and I ended up at the same table at the Trop a couple of months back, it was exactly the same. It'd be the same no matter what we were playing (golf, checkers, whatever), whether for $$ or just bragging rights. Anyone who doesn't understand the nature of competition shouldn't be in any game, plain and simple. Where's the joy in beating someone if you know he's taking it easy on you?

[MilkFish]

i have the same dilemma but we both kinda "know" it. so we would jokingly say to each other, we should play at different tables when we have a choice (we play low limit and no limit.) my friend would say, so we both end up winning more and not against each other. but i suspect my friend also softplays me once in an while, as i do too.

i play "normally" when we're in a pot with other people but i really do play different when it's heads up. i guess, we're both thinking the same thing. not profitable yes, but some friendships are worth more than a 2/4 or 3/6 pot. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Porcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be better if you played limit with your friends. That way there is less chance that you will lose a large chunk of money to each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Also, if you sit across (seats 1 and 4, for example) the table from each other, instead of next to each other, you should be involved in less pots with each other, but can still easily talk.

[The Goober]

I used to feel this way too - that its okay to softplay a friend only when its heads up - but I now think its wrong to do that. The problem is that both friends know what will happen, and it will affect their play on earlier streets.

For example, suppose its 3 handed on the flop, and my buddy bets into me. If I can raise and knock out the third player, then I know I can get to the showdown for only 1BB (since my buddy and I will check it down after the third player folds). This is, of course, really unfair to the third player unless he was explicitly told about our agreement, and even then, I don't think that friends softplaying is something that everyone at the table should have to take into account when trying to read hands.

I know most people wouldn't knowlingly make a play like this (and I think that anyone who makes this play *knows* that they are cheating), but I think that this sort of thinking could subconciously affect your play. So basically, you should never soft play a friend at the table.

Of course, having said that, I see friends checking down hands heads-up all the time, and I never complain about it. Why? Because I think that whatever small advantage they might have is outweighed by the fact that by speaking up I would make myself very unpopular at the table, and people would start to see a bullseye on my forward and start to play more agressive and tricky towards me. While a better player might be able to take advantage of this to win even more, I'm not that good and I like to keep the fish nice and passive and predictable.

[fireman664]

it would be unethical to play him any way other than you would play anyone else at the table. Plus, if you guys are good friends, loosing some pots to you wont change that (would you still be his friend if he rivered a Q vs your AA?? of course)...

[kyro]

i played a home game with my friend when i visited him at school. i took almost his whole stack. i then bragged about it. that'll teach him.

[gamblore99]

Your problem is complicated a lot by the fact that your friend is risking money that is to much for him. Normally the answer is a very simple you play everyone the same, but because the money you take from your friend may seriously hurt him, I think you should try to convince him to change limits, or play at a different table than him.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
not profitable yes, but some friendships are worth more than a 2/4 or 3/6 pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Just how strong is a friendship when it's based on the outcoome of a 2/4 or 3/6 pot? Gimme a break.

b

[thirddan]

i used to play at separate tables just cuz there usually weren't two seats that opened up at the same time, but now if its possible i will move to a table with my friend if the game is good...i find that the boredom is much easier to handle when you ahve a friend at the table, also it offers good exercises in hand reading and playing against thinking players (assuming your friend is such) some of the most interesting discussions come from you and your friend being in the same pot...

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
2/4 no limit game at Mandalay Bay. Playing at a full table with a good friend & a bunch of strangers. One hand, I had pocket Aces. My friend is in early position with pocket Queens. He raises, I re-raise, he calls. Flop is rags, he raises, I re-raise, he calls. The final two steets I simply call his bets. The pot ends up being 200-300 dollars, and I take it down. (This is a fairly large amount of money for my friend.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you two were heads up, it sounds like he was betting into you, not the other way around. Hence you had no control over the outcome if you just called his bets. Its a lesson your friend will have to learn, NL is not a friendly game. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[iash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2/4 no limit game at Mandalay Bay. Playing at a full table with a good friend & a bunch of strangers. One hand, I had pocket Aces. My friend is in early position with pocket Queens. He raises, I re-raise, he calls. Flop is rags, he raises, I re-raise, he calls. The final two steets I simply call his bets. The pot ends up being 200-300 dollars, and I take it down. (This is a fairly large amount of money for my friend.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you two were heads up, it sounds like he was betting into you, not the other way around. Hence you had no control over the outcome if you just called his bets. Its a lesson your friend will have to learn, NL is not a friendly game. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he was betting into me, I guess it was my re-raising that people had a problem with. The more I think about it, the more I agree that one should play their best regardless of the opponent or circumstances.

As for fighting the boredom - my friend & I sat side by side at that table for 21 hours, I don't think that would have been possible if I was by myself.

The major complication was he could not afford to play at that limit. Still, it was his decision to sit down at the table. In the future I'd advise him to play lower limits or limit-poker. Otherwise I'll let him know I play him the same as anyone else.

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.

iash

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot ends up being 200-300 dollars, and I take it down. (This is a fairly large amount of money for my friend.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is key. Perhaps your friend shouldn't have been in this game. You're not his mommy, even though he's your friend. If you want rebate him later, go for it, but take it from him now.

I always play my friends hard and I expect the same back. I was playing 4/8 at the Golden Nugget two to the left of my wife - that was the only time we've ever played together. I felt wierd when we got headsup once or twice, but I still wanted to win. Which I didn't.

Regards,

T

[krazyace5]

I would rather have my friend win my money than a stranger, besides I could hit him up for a loan afterwards. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Homer]

I have one friend that consistently reprimanded me for raising him when he bets in to me.

Maybe he should stop betting.

[willie]

see my post from last week about a similar situation

told my friend i'd never be softplaying him so either play back at me or just get a different table.

[okayplayer]

If I'm in a game with my friend, we will always check it down if we're heads-up (we'd rather take everyone else's money not each others). If there are other people in the hand, we play as if the other is anyone else (however it helps to narrow his hands down!). But if I'm playing a home game with a bunch of friends, then I'll take their money. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Turo]

I was playing at the Bike today with a guy that was telling everyone how much of a nice guy he is and how he never bets when he is heads up.
He never bet when he was heads up. The time he did bet heads up by accident and he beat the guy that called him he returned him the 8 dollars from the last bet. He also said "im sorry for being a jerk and betting at you"
A few hads later I checked raised the guy and everyone at the table including him gave me grief about it.
Personly I found it rediculous because we are there to make money, Not to make friends.

[jmark]

Of course you should softplay eachother. There's no reason to drive up the rake after you've managed to bully everyone else out of the hand. You're just going to end up splitting the other suckers' money later, right?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm in a game with my friend, we will always check it down if we're heads-up (we'd rather take everyone else's money not each others).

[/ QUOTE ]

So i guess it's a team game for you? Fantastic. How about if everyone only would bet if only you were in the hand, but stopped if you were out. I guess that would be just as fair.

b

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Dear iash /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pummel the hell out of your friends, or don't play against them in a casino, or even at home. You should play your friends MORE aggressively than normal! I have played against Clarkmeister (and others) and trust me, we HAMMER THE HELL out of each other at every opportunity, sometimes posting about it later. Clark totally pummelled me on a 10-20 hand a few years ago, it had NO effect on how either of us felt after the hand. (Except me. My ass was kinda sore since he had won a rather large pot from me! The bastard! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

My guess is that you folded JJ preflop incorrectly. Since your buddy lost anyway, don't you feel stupid now?

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

... for not sugar-coating it.

Pummell or be pummelled.

softness is for my girlfriend after she puts on lotion.

No limit is hard, and harsh. Chit or get off the friggin' pot.

al

[DBowling]

It really frustrates me when i see buddies going easy on eachother. It pissed me off most when i folded a pocket pair to what would have been runner runner quads. Lots of action preflop. Lots of action on the flop. Then heads up, checked down. This was only two buddies. Imagine if three friends were at a table. The action at the table would surely die. I think its bad form to take it easy on any player for any reason. If one doesnt like taking one's buddies money, or he doesnt like having his money taken, i think they should find seperate tables,

[iash]

[ QUOTE ]
Dear iash /images/graemlins/grin.gif

My guess is that you folded JJ preflop incorrectly. Since your buddy lost anyway, don't you feel stupid now?

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup I folded JJ incorrectly. Yes my buddy lost a few stacks of red chips, and i totally felt like a moron.

A few days ago I told my friend to suck it up and deal. If he can't handle losing chips to me, then he should play at another table.

We plan on going to foxwoods in a few weeks, and he is aware I'm going to play him as tough as I would anyone else...what was the word you used, Al? Pummel pummel pummel....

Where do you play?

-iash

[Warik]

If your friend is not comfortable with playing against you, then you shouldn't be playing with him at the same table.

In the rare event that I am playing poker with a friend, I let him know that if he either a) whines about me betting/raising into him or b) softplays me, I will change tables and not play with him again.

Here in Florida it's $2 limit anyway. If a friend can't deal with losing a chump change buy-in, I don't want to play with him.