Early in a NL tournament...

10 player freezeout with one rebuy if you completely go bust. I have not yet used my rebuy (rebuys are a nominal cost; this is a private freezeout and the rebuy is just "monster vs monster" insurance to ensure everyone gets a chance to play for a while). Each player starts with T1000 and most are still fairly close to that level (I am up to about 1150).


Blinds are currently 10-20. Blinds increase very slowly and give lots of time to play.


I have Q-10o in mid position. UTG folds, UTG+1 limps, I limp, next limps, next (R) limps, button (T) limps, both blinds call. 7 players see the flop.


Flop: Qd - 10h - 4s


I flop top two and its checked to me. I bet the pot of T120. R calls, T calls, all others fold.


Turn: Js


I go all in for about T1000 into a pot of T480.


R folds, but T has 98o and naturally calls and I'm off to the rebuy cage when the river provides no help.


Comments on how I played this and what, if any, effect the fact that I could still rebuy existed.

I think playing QTo in mid-position is not good. There are too many players after you that can raise and you are quite possibly dominated if either a Q or a T flops.


On the flop your bet looks good.


On the turn you are not happy with the card. AK is unlikely since no one raised. K9 is possible but most players don't play it. 98 is possible. QJ is also a possible hand. So the question of course is if you go all-in, will you get called by a lesser hand? It is possible KQ calls.


I think I might bet a bit less then the pot. I make it 360 to go. If you are raised all-in then it is decision time.


Ken Poklitar

David,


I would just bet half the pot on the flop. With seven players seeing the flop I would not want to invest two much money. By, betting half the pot you will not get called by JT. On the turn I would check and fold to most bets. If they had called your flop bet they may have QJ, a set of 4s, or the straight.


The point I want to stress is with SEVEN players they are bound to have something that hit that flop.


Good Luck


Mark

On the flop he has top 2 pair. Betting 1/2 the pot is just asking for callers. I agree there are 7 players but it is unlikely someone hit it more then he did.


Not sure check/folding is correct on the turn. Seems to tight to me. Although in this case it would have been best of course.


Ken Poklitar

Ken,


The reason why I bet half the pot is not to lose too much money. It has been in my experience that when more than three players take a flop in an unraised pot for me to proceed with extreme caution. I've seen more players loose more stacks of chips in this situation. Ask Greg what he thinks.


Good Luck


Mark

Preflop: Call is fine, as long as you generally play better than most of the others postflop.


Flop: Pot bet is fine, as is a smaller bet. The key is knowing each opponent, and what they need to call/raise.


Turn: I don't like this bet at all. It is only going to get called when you're beat, it will almost never cause a better hand to fold. Trip 4s is about the only thing they could fold that would've beat you, and few players fold a set until there is 4 to a straight and/or flush on board, and it's the river.


I would've bet about 200-250 here. A lesser hand might still call, and a better hand will usually let you know it.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

With a board of Q-J-10 and two spades on board, I wanted all the drawing hands OUT so I wanted to distort the pot odds radically in order to prevent calls from any kind of drawing hand, since I don't want to have to deal with any kind of scare card on the river which could be any ace, king, jack, nine, eight, or spade, which amounts to something like 24 cards I don't want to see. Especially given that I'm out of position on the hand and don't want to have to check the river and face a big bet behind me.


I'm not trying to get a better hand to fold, but I think a bet of 3/4 pot may not be enough to get someone to fold a king or nine or flush draw, no? On the turn, I'm assuming my two pair is still the best but it could easily not be the best on the river, so I don't want to see a river. My turn bet is to get the drawing hands to fold (or call incorrectly).


Am I totally wrong here?

Well, since it's the turn, the chances of somebody with a straight or flush draw getting there is about 4:1 against. So, as long as you limit their total payoff (turn + river) to less than this, they'll be making a mistake to call. If they have both draws, they're about 2:1 against, and you probably can't make them fold, especially since somebody with both draws at once will usually have a pair as well, giving them potentially more outs (plus the hope that you're bluffing).


Keep in mind that many of the draws will fold anyway. Any reasonable player is folding a 9 or 8 here, because they've got to figure on drawing dead pretty often. Even a K has to realize that sometimes they're drawing for a tie only. The draws you knock out for 1000 often would've folded for 350.


Plus, the thing here is, except for knocking out a draw, your bet cannot achieve anything else. So, you lose 1000 when behind, win the 480 out there when ahead, and you keep somebody from drawing out on you 20% of the time. But, when they've already gotten there, you lose 1000 except for that 10% of the time you fill up. And, if you bet less, you will sometimes get called by 1 and 2 pair hands that you dominate, which are drawing dead or close.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Greg,


You indicated that you didn't like the turn bet of 1000 and suggested to bet approximately 250. I didn't like the turn bet at all for a few reasons. I'm bringing this up to show the importance of how likely it was for someone to hit the turn considering there were seven players that saw the flop.


First, with that many players and with a coordinated board I would consider checking. I wouldn't worry about the two flush on the turn, because they called the bet on the flop indicating they already had something.


If I could do the math to prove it I would, but I'm only speaking from experience. With seven players I expect the draw to get there or a better hand with the card that fell. I'm bringing this up because anytime I say something that seems controverial, some posters will side with what you say without figuring it out or questionion it. I believe this type of situation where the number of players in the pot affects your strategy.


Good Luck


Mark